Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 402

Try our Fantastic 5-Issue Bundle Offer! For just £18, a saving of 10% on the regular cover price, you’ll get:
The Play-offs Issue - pictured (out 12 Sept) – Covering the climax of the Super League & Championship seasons
The Grand Finals Issue (out 17 Oct) – Grand Final excitement from both sides of the world plus Four Nations preview
The Four Nations Issue (out 21 Nov) – Fantastic coverage of the Four Nations tournament down under
The Golden Boot Issue (out 19 Dec) – A look back at the 2014 season plus the big reveal of the winner of the Golden Boot
The 2015 Season Preview Issue (out 23 Jan) – How will your team perform in 2015? We preview every club.


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Michael Foot Centenary


  • Please log in to reply
87 replies to this topic

#61 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,174 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

non whatsoever, let them try and  negotiate their own pay, terms and conditions and see how far they get as individuals.

Yeah why do we need equal pay legislation?



#62 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,174 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

What has that got to do with it? You think you are entitled to sunbathe then enjoy the benefits of someone's labour?

"Striking" isn't labour. You didn't do any work, you withdrew your labour in a bid to push up wage costs - essentially blackmail. If you won and got the money you wanted then rejoice but why get upset that other people also got the rise? There are reasons why the same job should be paid the same wage



#63 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,008 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:16 PM

"Striking" isn't labour. You didn't do any work, you withdrew your labour in a bid to push up wage costs - essentially blackmail. If you won and got the money you wanted then rejoice but why get upset that other people also got the rise? There are reasons why the same job should be paid the same wage

'Please Sir, can we have a payrise?, our kids are starving'

 

'Do one, I can't afford it, sending my kids to public school isn't cheap you know'

 

'Well we with withold our labour until we get a living wage and conditions that don't endanger our lives'

 

'Go on then, see if I care'

 

(work stops, factory owner realises he has to pay them a reasonable wage, does so and work resumes)

 

'Good move everyone, by standing together we have shown that we are worthy of more than starvation wages'

 

Somehow, the factory miraciously keeps going and still makes a profit for many years to come. Of course, they could have relied solely on the goodness of the factory owner to pay them well enough to live  I'm sure the non union people would have talked them round. :rolleyes:


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#64 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,174 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:21 PM

'Please Sir, can we have a payrise?, our kids are starving'

 

'Do one, I can't afford it, sending my kids to public school isn't cheap you know'

 

'Well we with withold our labour until we get a living wage and conditions that don't endanger our lives'

 

'Go on then, see if I care'

 

(work stops, factory owner realises he has to pay them a reasonable wage, does so and work resumes)

 

'Good move everyone, by standing together we have shown that we are worthy of more than starvation wages'

 

Somehow, the factory miraciously keeps going and still makes a profit for many years to come. Of course, they could have relied solely on the goodness of the factory owner to pay them well enough to live  I'm sure the non union people would have talked them round. :rolleyes:

Firstly that's not related to what I said. There was no argument put forward for why union labour should be paid higher than non-union labour for the same job.

 

Secondly wages are related to supply and demand. Low skilled jobs typically don't get many pay rises because there is always a ready supply of unskilled labour and the demand for it doesn't go up much in mature economies. Non-union labour can get huge pay rises in areas where there is a shortage of skilled labour. You don't tend to hear too much about trade unions among computer programmers for a reason.

 

Thirdly you are kidding that wage demands don't make business go under. What do you think "outsourcing" is all about?


Edited by Northern Sol, 25 July 2013 - 07:22 PM.


#65 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,008 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:47 PM

Wage demands? In this day and age? What planet do you work on? I haven't had a pay rise for at least 6 years and am now being told to take a 15% pay cut. The options? Take it or eff off.

If people are happy earning a pittance and don't feel the need to ask for any more, then that's up to them. But they shouldn't reap the benefits of others who were prepared to stand up and be counted.

And besides, I am talking about the initial changes bought about by the trade unions, not especially today.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#66 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,148 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

"Striking" isn't labour. You didn't do any work, you withdrew your labour in a bid to push up wage costs - essentially blackmail. If you won and got the money you wanted then rejoice but why get upset that other people also got the rise? There are reasons why the same job should be paid the same wageT

 

 

 

 

 

The strike, or threat of a strike is the only weapon labour has.  People are selling their labour, if the person buying that labour won't pay the asking price then those people are entitled to not sell that labour.  Business don't sell their products for less than they can afford to, why should labour be any different?


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#67 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,174 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:13 PM

The strike, or threat of a strike is the only weapon labour has.  People are selling their labour, if the person buying that labour won't pay the asking price then those people are entitled to not sell that labour.  Business don't sell their products for less than they can afford to, why should labour be any different?

Businesses that collaborate to fix prices are illegal. Workers that collaborate to fix labour costs are legal.

 

But that wasn't my point.

 

My point is that striking is not work. It does not produce anything.



#68 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,174 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:18 PM

Wage demands? In this day and age? What planet do you work on? I haven't had a pay rise for at least 6 years and am now being told to take a 15% pay cut. The options? Take it or eff off.

If people are happy earning a pittance and don't feel the need to ask for any more, then that's up to them. But they shouldn't reap the benefits of others who were prepared to stand up and be counted.

And besides, I am talking about the initial changes bought about by the trade unions, not especially today.

It's not me that's on a different planet if you think that union and non-union staff being paid differently is going to end well for union members. Don't imagine that the unionised guys will be paid more for very long.

 

When trade unions go on strike, the non-union staff often have to cover for them and if the trade union damages the business then they also lose out.

 

Unfortunately if you don't have an in-demand skill then pay rises are few and far between and that's got little to do with unions. They can try to bid up the wage rate but in the end, they are just speeding up the inevitable outsource to China.



#69 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,008 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:35 PM

It's not me that's on a different planet if you think that union and non-union staff being paid differently is going to end well for union members. Don't imagine that the unionised guys will be paid more for very long.
 
When trade unions go on strike, the non-union staff often have to cover for them and if the trade union damages the business then they also lose out.
 
Unfortunately if you don't have an in-demand skill then pay rises are few and far between and that's got little to do with unions. They can try to bid up the wage rate but in the end, they are just speeding up the inevitable outsource to China.

This is drifting away from the original point, which was that employers would not have raised pay or improved conditions without the initial union movement. That it is a different situation today is undeniable. But many people have decried unions, whilst happy to take the benefits that it has provided for the vast, vast majority of workers in this country.

As for outsourcing work, this is happening more and more, and will only drive our wages down irrespective.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#70 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,174 posts

Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:52 PM

This is drifting away from the original point, which was that employers would not have raised pay or improved conditions without the initial union movement. That it is a different situation today is undeniable. But many people have decried unions, whilst happy to take the benefits that it has provided for the vast, vast majority of workers in this country.
 

I'm not overkeen on medieval barons either but I still think Magna Carta should apply to me. I'd be surprised if you didn't.



#71 MikeW

MikeW
  • Coach
  • 814 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:18 AM

 You don't tend to hear too much about trade unions among computer programmers for a reason.

 

That's because the one at our place is SATA, basically USDAW and is terrible.  I've watched them sit back and allow the company to take away our sick pay because we are classed as one homogonous group along with the call centre staff, and so when call centre sickness went up to 20% we lost our sickness rights, despite having 1% sickness in the department, and the union just said it was outside their remit to get involved. I'd love Phil's scenario of getting my own T&Cs.  Also I assume in John's scenario he would be happy that union workers would be the first to be laid off during any hard times, due to their improved pay and conditions making them less profitable than non union workers?



#72 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,886 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:32 AM

That's because the one at our place is SATA, basically USDAW and is terrible.  I've watched them sit back and allow the company to take away our sick pay because we are classed as one homogonous group along with the call centre staff, and so when call centre sickness went up to 20% we lost our sickness rights, despite having 1% sickness in the department, and the union just said it was outside their remit to get involved. I'd love Phil's scenario of getting my own T&Cs.  Also I assume in John's scenario he would be happy that union workers would be the first to be laid off during any hard times, due to their improved pay and conditions making them less profitable than non union workers?


Companies have a right to withdraw a benefit if it is abused. They do not have a right to withdraw statutory T&C's.

Anyway why would you feel the need to worry about sick pay with 1% sickness absence?

I work in the employment industry and by far and way the biggest problem is over generous packages rather than abuse of workers rights. We must address the balance.

It amazes me that my father in law who was employed as a shop fitter, could retire at 55 and play golf for the rest of his life.
This situation has arisen due to union power over stretching companies and the country. I don't think we need to be thanking the unions too much for the fact that I'm paying for his retirement. I'm happy for him but he's not alone. There's a whole host of people now hitting their sixties awash with golf clubs, new cars and trips to Portugal, moaning about low interest rates when they haven't 2 O levels between them and 30 years service in a factory. The self same people a generation younger like myself, can only dream of that lifestyle and it's not because of waning union power.

#73 Griff9of13

Griff9of13
  • Coach
  • 5,661 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:36 AM

Companies have a right to withdraw a benefit if it is abused. They do not have a right to withdraw statutory T&C's.

Anyway why would you feel the need to worry about sick pay with 1% sickness absence?

I work in the employment industry and by far and way the biggest problem is over generous packages rather than abuse of workers rights. We must address the balance.

It amazes me that my father in law who was employed as a shop fitter, could retire at 55 and play golf for the rest of his life.
This situation has arisen due to union power over stretching companies and the country. I don't think we need to be thanking the unions too much for the fact that I'm paying for his retirement. I'm happy for him but he's not alone. There's a whole host of people now hitting their sixties awash with golf clubs, new cars and trips to Portugal, moaning about low interest rates when they haven't 2 O levels between them and 30 years service in a factory.
The self same people a generation younger like myself, can only dream of that lifestyle and it's not because of waning union power.

 

And what's wrong with that? Isn't that how it should be?


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#74 MikeW

MikeW
  • Coach
  • 814 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:54 AM

Companies have a right to withdraw a benefit if it is abused. They do not have a right to withdraw statutory T&C's.

Anyway why would you feel the need to worry about sick pay with 1% sickness absence?

 

Seriously?

 

Because 1% is an average figure.  If you are the unlucky one to be ill twice during a whole year you lose the first three days pay of the second sickness period.



#75 MikeW

MikeW
  • Coach
  • 814 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

And what's wrong with that? Isn't that how it should be?

30 years work for 90 years life?  That's not going to work in the long run is it?



#76 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,886 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

Seriously?
 
Because 1% is an average figure.  If you are the unlucky one to be ill twice during a whole year you lose the first three days pay of the second sickness period.


The problem with a carte blanch sickness benefit is that people generally feel the urge to treat them like holidays. In my experience Mondays and Fridays tend to be quite popular. I worked for a firm where the wording in T&C's literally was "you are entitled to 10 days sick leave per annum". I advise all companies to put a statement to the effect that unforced absence will be dealt with on an individual basis. This stops loafers and hypochondriacs spoiling it for those who genuinely have problems.

If someone is genuinely absent for sickness and it is a long term problem then companies tend to be very supportive.

#77 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,008 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:28 PM

 Also I assume in John's scenario he would be happy that union workers would be the first to be laid off during any hard times, due to their improved pay and conditions making them less profitable than non union workers?

I don't realistically think we should be paying people different rates for the same job, no. It's more a question of acknowledging the fact that others got you that pay and conditions you enjoy and not denigrating them.


Edited by Johnoco, 26 July 2013 - 12:32 PM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#78 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,886 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:29 PM

30 years work for 90 years life?  That's not going to work in the long run is it?


Exactly. It worked for one generation of individuals and good luck to them. It's the rest of us that will have to work for 50 years+ to pay for them.

#79 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,008 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:31 PM

The problem with a carte blanch sickness benefit is that people generally feel the urge to treat them like holidays. In my experience Mondays and Fridays tend to be quite popular. I worked for a firm where the wording in T&C's literally was "you are entitled to 10 days sick leave per annum". I advise all companies to put a statement to the effect that unforced absence will be dealt with on an individual basis. This stops loafers and hypochondriacs spoiling it for those who genuinely have problems.

If someone is genuinely absent for sickness and it is a long term problem then companies tend to be very supportive.

I get no sick pay (other than SSP) if absent from work. If someone knows you are off for genuine reasons, then its up to their discretion and they will possibly pay you. This situation was brought about by people abusing the previous system where you got 2 weeks sick pay every year and some people took it every single year without fail.


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#80 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,886 posts

Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:34 PM

And what's wrong with that? Isn't that how it should be?


I just wanted to say it is how it should be but.....




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users