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Hookers at dummy half


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#21 longboard

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:33 AM

I guess that the development of the use of players as pivots has moved this on also, with teams having players on either side of the pitch who orchestrate attacking moves. So a side's attacking moves, or plays, can revolve around other players in the team other than the scrum half and stand off.



#22 marklaspalmas

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:34 AM

More questions:

 

When was the rule changed so that the AHB tackled in possession no longer resulted in a scrum?

 

It's interesting to hear about the SH being the primary AHB before then. So under unlimited tackles generally first receiver would be the next big forward driving it in?

 

Regardless of his AHB duties (or absence thereof) the hooker it seems has always been a more diminutive forward, albeit generally a good tackler. Their contribution must have been limited to just working the scrums, and with his side in possession didn't do much?

 

How does that fit when we describe the great hookers of the past? Joe Egan was great, because of his ball winning ability in the scrum and not about the loose? What about a later figure like Stevo? Or had the AHB law been rescinded by then?



#23 marklaspalmas

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:35 AM

I guess that the development of the use of players as pivots has moved this on also, with teams having players on either side of the pitch who orchestrate attacking moves. So a side's attacking moves, or plays, can revolve around other players in the team other than the scrum half and stand off.

 

Hard to believe that didn't happen until recently. The old days of a ball handling loose forward, and working the blind side. Surely not a recent invention?



#24 latchford albion

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

More questions:
 
When was the rule changed so that the AHB tackled in possession no longer resulted in a scrum?
 
It's interesting to hear about the SH being the primary AHB before then. So under unlimited tackles generally first receiver would be the next big forward driving it in?
 
Regardless of his AHB duties (or absence thereof) the hooker it seems has always been a more diminutive forward, albeit generally a good tackler. Their contribution must have been limited to just working the scrums, and with his side in possession didn't do much?


 
How does that fit when we describe the great hookers of the past? Joe Egan was great, because of his ball winning ability in the scrum and not about the loose? What about a later figure like Stevo? Or had the AHB law been rescinded by then?


From Wikipedia so be wary: the rule was brought in in New South Wales in 1961 to discourage runs from dummy half and rescinded two years later. There - on the page 'laws of rugby league' - is a list of many of the rule changes since 1895. The majority of the ones listed come from Australia - presumably law changes largely followed each other internationally.

Edited by latchford albion, 30 July 2013 - 09:38 AM.


#25 marklaspalmas

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

From Wikipedia so be wary: the rule was brought in in New South Wales in 1961 to discourage runs from dummy half and rescinded two years later. There - on the page 'laws of rugby league' - is a list of many of the rule changes since 1895. The majority of the ones listed come from Australia - presumably law changes largely followed each other internationally.

 

 

Ah. If that's right, then there was only a very limited period of time when the law was in place (two years in Australia). So the scoot lived freely both long before and after those dates. That changes things. There was a lot more scope for AHBs then.



#26 Trojan

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:04 PM

Ah. If that's right, then there was only a very limited period of time when the law was in place (two years in Australia). So the scoot lived freely both long before and after those dates. That changes things. There was a lot more scope for AHBs then.

 

It was certainly in force when I played the game - early sixties, but I'd have said it went with the introduction of limited tackles - no longer needed.

I certainly remember our no 6 saying to me - a very green rookie - in one of my first games as he passed me the ball from AHB "die wi't'ball owd lad, don't pass!"  Them wa t'days! :tongue: I also remember playing at Crown Flatt and still very green and not knowing the rule. actually scooted from half back. all my team mates were screaming for a pass - I ignored them, and nearly scored because the opponents were taken by surprise, but I was tackled and mortified when I discovered I'd conceded a scrum.  I learned the rule the hard way!


Edited by Trojan, 30 July 2013 - 08:08 PM.

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#27 Duff Duff

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

If the no runs from dummy half rule was in place then it makes sense why the scrum half was moved out from the play of the ball as the decision making and play making rule was reduced to a shovelling role. 



#28 keighley

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:14 PM

Ah. If that's right, then there was only a very limited period of time when the law was in place (two years in Australia). So the scoot lived freely both long before and after those dates. That changes things. There was a lot more scope for AHBs then.

 

No, that's not true. I remember a good few seasons with that rule in place.



#29 Marauder

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:58 PM

i remember keith elwell being one of the first hookers to take over the dummy half mantle, his speed of thought and pace made him a great success in the role.

Add Ronnie Wileman to that role as well.


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#30 redditchbulldog

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:47 AM

late 70's early 80's it was usually the scrum half who went to AHB as that was my position when i played around that time.. and was told by my coach to always get to AHB unless player tackled was otherside of the pitch and then it was whoever was nearest.


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#31 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:00 PM

Still think they should change the name of the role considering they don't "hook" anymore.

As well as that of the loose forward, who most of the time doesn't pack down as a "loose" in the scrum (as that's where the "hooker" tends to be these days for a quick delivery from the scrum).


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#32 Northern Sol

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:05 PM

Still think they should change the name of the role considering they don't "hook" anymore.

As well as that of the loose forward, who most of the time doesn't pack down as a "loose" in the scrum (as that's where the "hooker" tends to be these days for a quick delivery from the scrum).

Centres aren't in the centre either.



#33 Vasile Andreica

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:13 PM

You may as well borrow American football terminology - offensive line, running backs, receivers :D


Edited by Vasile Andreica, 31 July 2013 - 04:13 PM.


#34 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:41 PM

Centres aren't in the centre either.

They're in the centre positions of the three quarter line, hence "centre three-quarter" and "wing three-quarter".
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#35 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

You may as well borrow American football terminology - offensive line, running backs, receivers :D

Those terms are used in RL (well, attacking line rather than offensive), but not to describe positions.

I'd call a hooker a quarter back personally. They're between the half backs and the forwards (no backs!) and also stand at the back of the scrum these days most if the time.
I'd also change the loose forward to a centre forward since they wouldn't be loose at the scrum anymore. I'd also swap their numbers.

Think this would fit with the evolution that has happened in the game. No point in continuing to call a position by a name that doesn't match its purpose anymore IMO.
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#36 Northern Sol

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:10 PM

They're in the centre positions of the three quarter line, hence "centre three-quarter" and "wing three-quarter".

Do we really have a three quarter line?

 

Rugby league sides line up flat (except for those involved in the PTB and possibly the full back) in both attack and defence. The three quarters stand no deeper than the half backs.

 

I'm sure you'll point out the scrum positions but I'm not really sure why one of the least significant aspects of the modern game defines the position names.



#37 Steve May

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:27 PM

I'm sure you'll point out the scrum positions but I'm not really sure why one of the least significant aspects of the modern game defines the position names.

 

Lets give them new names then, that more accurately describe what they do.


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#38 bobbruce

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:04 PM

Lets give them new names then, that more accurately describe what they do.


I know scrum half,stand off,centre,winger and fullback just off the top of my head why don't we try them(;

#39 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 04:13 PM

Do we really have a three quarter line?

 

Rugby league sides line up flat (except for those involved in the PTB and possibly the full back) in both attack and defence. The three quarters stand no deeper than the half backs.

 

I'm sure you'll point out the scrum positions but I'm not really sure why one of the least significant aspects of the modern game defines the position names.

Can't really argue with you there, although that is why we call them forwards and backs as well. It's just how the positions are defined. But basically the role of the hooker isn't a hooker anymore, neither is a loose.

 

What would you call a centre? An inside-winger?

Would a back-rower be a wide-forward and a front-rower just a prop-forward?


Edited by Wellsy4HullFC, 02 August 2013 - 04:13 PM.

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#40 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 04:14 PM

I know scrum half,stand off,centre,winger and fullback just off the top of my head why don't we try them(;

Can you explain how those names describe their roles without saying "that's just what they've always been called"?


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