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Operational Rules

Operational Rules

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#101 The 4 of Us

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:41 PM

Do we not now do our pre season in winter at great expense ?


We were referring to the "kids". Older age groups are a little more robust. Haigh Hall and the hills a particular favourite of the more enterprising coaches : )

#102 TaxiEgg

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

Older kids are more robust maybe that's why there is plenty of talk in returning the older age groups back to a more traditional season and keeping them in the game ?

 

We have the "green hill " in sunny Leigh its a killer ;)



#103 mmp

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:21 PM

Real life example.

Invoice one provided to me tonight. For our summer facility - unlimited Sunday and Saturday use, changing rooms and storage space, and training tues, weds, thurs from April to end of August - bill of £290

For "winter" period at end of our season - Sept to end of Oct for open age, 2hs a week - £600. Winter for juniors, indoors all winter 1hr a week, £600. (That invoice was emailed today). Pre-season, 3hrs a week as a club Jan - April, £1,500. (Involved in jan).

Winter training - just for open age as its all we did at the time, (one team) - cost £2048. To have added a single junior side, training costs would have been £1024 (based on 1hr a week bookIng all winter). And we.d still need to hire a pitch (£80 per use with council so £800 for an adult side, add £800 to add Sunday morning use to run juniors).

So, running unlimited summer sides ( we've run 2 adult sides, 2 junior sides, and 2 junior training groups) - total facility costs for a year is £2990. Those costs are fixed - I can add as many junior sides as I can find volunteers for and that cost doesn't change as I'm hiring the facility which isn't used by anyone else in summer.

To run a (single) adult side, and a notional junior side (just 1) would be c. £4,600. Every new side would be extra cost to find space...when there isn't actually space available because block booking by football means we get the crumbs!

The game needs to choose. It either wants to grow, or it wants to service it's 'tradionalists'. It's very very hard to start a new club with those kind of winter costs. 'Traditional' clubs may have had 100 years to find their own solution, but a new club can't do it and will find it very very very hard to begin.
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#104 The 4 of Us

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:25 PM

We have the "green hill " in sunny Leigh its a killer ;)


Green? Leigh ?

#105 Gar

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:37 PM

I tend to agree with The 4 of Us. There are a lot of successes out there. Some clubs have faced the issues and challenges raised by the switch to summer rugby head on and are emerging strongly. Others (or at least certain individuals within those clubs) have buried their heads in the sand and are unwilling or unable to come to terms with the switch to summer rugby. They are doing their clubs a disservice.

If everyone's focus was on ironing out the inevitable flaws / issues that have arisen as a result of the switch the game and clubs would be stronger.

Edited by Gar, 07 August 2013 - 08:38 PM.


#106 Marauder

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:01 PM

I can not believe that any amateur club during the winter months train every session every week in doors and from experience it's not the kids who don't want to train in the winter it's their mams and dads who in our case don't want to stand in the cold watching.

 

I know it's wonderful to have a zillion training on a warm summers night but it's also demoralising on a Saturday when teams are playing short or playing under strength after phoning round for players like in the old Sunday morning leagues.

 

As for the extra cost of training that would be covered by the extra bar takings in the winter.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#107 Marauder

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:04 PM

I tend to agree with The 4 of Us. There are a lot of successes out there. Some clubs have faced the issues and challenges raised by the switch to summer rugby head on and are emerging strongly. Others (or at least certain individuals within those clubs) have buried their heads in the sand and are unwilling or unable to come to terms with the switch to summer rugby. They are doing their clubs a disservice.

If everyone's focus was on ironing out the inevitable flaws / issues that have arisen as a result of the switch the game and clubs would be stronger.

The summer concept is good, the problem is after 18 months or so player availability is poor and in my experience it will not get better.


Edited by Marauder, 07 August 2013 - 09:04 PM.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#108 mmp

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:17 PM

 
As for the extra cost of training that would be covered by the extra bar takings in the winter.


What bar? If the game is to grow it needs new clubs
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#109 TaxiEgg

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:18 PM

Use our little mob as an example we fully embraced the switch to summer making sure that each team had continual fixtures from start to finish , our playing numbers have dropped by about 18% equating to about 300 less kids.

We have lost more fixtures in summer than we ever did in our old season which for those of you that don't know had a winter break.

And the biggest reason for the cancelled games is due to unavailability of players and coaches another real life example .



#110 Marauder

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:29 PM

What bar? If the game is to grow it needs new clubs

It needs to stabilise  before it can grow and looking at the problems most clubs are having (except yours) with their playing strength and standard being at it's lowest for years.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#111 The 4 of Us

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

Use our little mob as an example we fully embraced the switch to summer making sure that each team had continual fixtures from start to finish , our playing numbers have dropped by about 18% equating to about 300 less kids.
We have lost more fixtures in summer than we ever did in our old season which for those of you that don't know had a winter break.
And the biggest reason for the cancelled games is due to unavailability of players and coaches another real life example .


Are you talking about your club, NWC juniors , seniors because that's 20 teams worth ?

#112 The 4 of Us

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:43 PM

As for the extra cost of training that would be covered by the extra bar takings in the winter.


Who are these people enjoying a nice January pint instead of one in June/July.

If the bar's down is that not a case of people having less money to spend these days?

I'm not sure we should be the bar takings as a barometer of success .

#113 Marauder

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:28 PM

Who are these people enjoying a nice January pint instead of one in June/July.

If the bar's down is that not a case of people having less money to spend these days?

I'm not sure we should be the bar takings as a barometer of success .

No I agree, I'd be measuring the team sheets and number of teams on the park on a Saturday as well as the greater number of after match bar drinking  participants.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#114 TaxiEgg

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:50 AM

Are you talking about your club, NWC juniors , seniors because that's 20 teams worth ?

 

The clue was in " our little mob "

 

And just to keep the deabate ticking over before we actually get back to topic .

 

" Increased bar takings was part of the RFL spin "


Edited by TaxiEgg, 08 August 2013 - 07:53 AM.


#115 Gar

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:08 AM

RL doesn't operate in a vacuum. The switch from winter to summer has taken place during a recession, double dip recession, call it what you like . It's seems inconceivable to me that operating in such economic conditions wouldn't have effected clubs income regardless of whether we were playing summer or winter rugby.

Our club income fell after the switch to summer rugby due no doubt to a variety of different reasons. We are now back at the levels we were at prior to the switch. Gate money is down as are the numbers of private bookings for functions but we've replaced this loss of income through organising other new club events. Due to poor weather and the Christmas break the local rugby union club based a couple of miles away managed just two fixtures in the ten weeks between the last weekend in Nov and the last weekend in Jan. Had we been playing winter rugby and suffered so many unforseen cancellations we would have been reliant on a wealthy benefactor putting money in to the club to keep it going failing which are doors would have closed permenantly.

Similarly, participation levels in most team sports seem to have fallen over the past few years. I grew up playing sunday football in a league with five divisions. Fifteen years later there are just two. That said at Junior levels based on my clubs figures participation levels are increasing and numbers are healthy.

I'm not suggesting the switch to summer isn't without it's difficulties but the focus should be on how to address these issues within the existing framework of summer rugby rather than having people thinking the huge backward step to winter rugby would solve all the problems. For example we have a problem with consistency of selection at the elite level of the amateur game. Personally, I think that problem will ease as more juniors come through the ranks who have only known summer rugby but let's look at ways we can deal with that issue now ( eg summer break, ) rather than dividing and weakening the game with constant harping back to a bygone era.

I think the RFL should come out with a clear and unambiguous statement that summer rugby is here to stay and the position won't even be reviewed for the next five years. That should be enough to focus clubs mind's on the need to make summer rugby work rather than wasting too much time trying to engineer a move back to winter rugby. Those people in the clubs and leagues that cannot accept that should fall on their sword and hand over the reigns to people who are willing to try and have the enthusiasm to make the current set up work.

Edited by Gar, 08 August 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#116 TaxiEgg

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:01 PM

Your quite right re the recession happening but not one person I have spoken to as said the recession is the reason they have not been able to fulfill a fixture , but I accept it could be a factor in the empty clubhouses less than hour after the game as ended.
I'm not anti summer we as a league were the only ones in our region to address the problem of playing in the winter when we introduced a winter break several years before the idea of switching seasons came to the table .
So don't confuse me with being anti summer .
So what we now need to do is to take out the bits that are not working to enhance playing our game in the optimum months don't you agree ?

#117 nec

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:17 PM

The recession has certainly led to us losing players for away matches as they have taken Saturday morning shifts to compensate for a partner losing their job.
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#118 tim2

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:56 PM

The recession has certainly led to us losing players for away matches as they have taken Saturday morning shifts to compensate for a partner losing their job.


Same for us - we lost 3 players recently for an away game and ended up with only 11 as the kick-off was brought forward to 1.30 and they couldn't get there in time. You can't ask people to miss work to play rugby.
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#119 Gar

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:02 PM

Non-fulfilment of fixtures / lack of players is an issue and the switch to summer rugby undoubtedly a contributory factor. I think the situation will ease over time as more junior players filter through who have known nothing but summer rugby but you can't ignore the economic climate either. With work scarce some players / coaches sometimes don't have a choice but to take work when it's offered.

I think we are all in danger of getting too hung up on labels. If you take some of our junior sides as an example. They will play league rugby from March through until October. Some will then enter the BARLA Cups. Depending on how successful they are they'll potentially be playing through until November. That would be followed by a couple of months break (during the worst winter months) before its back into pre-season training and friendlies. Should we really be using the term 'summer rugby'? I haven't worked it out precisely but I would guess (taking into account the summer break) at least 2/3's of our junior rugby is played outside the summer months. You could argue certainly in terms of junior rugby we are still playing winter rugby but with a winter break similar to what you advocated. People seem to be getting hung up on the use of emotive terminology and ignoring the reality of what's actually happening.

I don't see any problems with the way the season currently operates for the juniors. I think it would be a huge backward step to take the juniors back to a full winter program. Given that the professional leagues operate a summer based season and the impracticality / undesirability of having only the amatuer open age following a winter based system then the focus has to be on making the open age amateur set up work (especially at elite amateur level) following in the main a summer based model. That's not to say there would be no place for winter open age leagues (which would provide vital all year round cash flow) but but the vast majority of players young and old should be playing rugby under the existing format.

The main focus now should be to address the issues that have arisen as a result of the switch and make the necessary alterations to the current format rather than a huge backward step to the way things were.

#120 TaxiEgg

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

Is that not what I said ?




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