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Legal Status of the NCL with the RFL


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#21 Spidey

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:34 PM

Your wrong there Spidey the NCL is the pinnacle amateur league and the clubs in the NCL have teams that play in those leagues .

 

They should have teams, but they don;t have to.   A youth team suffices nowadays which is a shame IMO

 

I wasn't saying they are not important, however this was a debate of the NCL and its set up, which i believe is ran well, how the other leagues are ran are a separate issue  (although by nature can have an impact)



#22 Impartial Observer

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

No this is a debate as it says of the legal Status of the NCL with the RFL and nothing to do with how it is run (which I agree is very well) which as you say is a separate issue.



#23 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 06:21 PM

The NCL is an Affiliated Tier 3 League as opposed to Conference South , which is a Member League 

 

The NCL management committee is the Management group appointed to run the competition . The composition  of the Management Committee is governed by the NCL constitution , which provides for elections by the members at AGM. The Committee is ultimately responsible to the member clubs for what it does.. It is elected by them and can be removed by them - who actually controls the NCL should therefore be pretty obvious to all except those who do not want to see.........

 

Considering that the NCL has at least one full time RFL employee concentrating their efforts on NCL business you get the feel of how independently run the NCL is. What we must remember in this is that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

And who represents the NCL on the RFL Community Del Boy, are they an affiliate member through BARLA as they remain associate to that organisation.



#24 Marauder

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 06:42 PM

I have no doubt Marauder that the NCL really can take care of themselves. You shouldn't worry so much about us dear. However, I am getting worried about you: you really must get a life.

I've got a life, I've been to Stratford-upon-Avon today to check on a job, tendered for another job and took my lad to Barnsley for boxing training, still time to go out for a couple of jars if I wanted :)

 

Lets not forget what happens at the top normally filters down and if all the twists, turns & facts aren't made visible  then the blind can be lead just about anywhere.


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#25 Marauder

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:27 PM

They should have teams, but they don;t have to.   A youth team suffices nowadays which is a shame IMO

 

I wasn't saying they are not important, however this was a debate of the NCL and its set up, which i believe is ran well, how the other leagues are ran are a separate issue  (although by nature can have an impact)

From your own admission you've highlighted what we all know that clubs `A` team's and youth teams have been propping the game up at a rate that was never seen during the winter, you've also stated that many clubs aren't really running `A` teams, in this case the burden to fill the first team's team sheet will fall on the clubs youth system, bearing in mind that the youth game is also reporting a shortage of players, this is a rule that's in the draft copy of the operational rules at the moment

 

Operational Rule C 1:5:2

 

A player shall be registered by the club by completing a registration form. Any player under the age of 18 requires a parent/guardian signature confirming that both player and the parent/guardian understand that some sections of the RFL Safeguarding Policy do not apply to open age Rugby League.

 

A player may only play for the open age team if their own age group can fulfil fixtures.


Edited by Marauder, 31 July 2013 - 07:28 PM.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#26 Celtic Rooster

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

I remember when Rugby League used to be about players, playing the game. Getting sick of it now. If Eccles ARLFC folded tomorrow I think I would just give up the game completely.



#27 TaxiEgg

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:51 PM

Rooster a lot of people are echoing your sentiments and what is the common denominator the RFL .
Just to give people an insight of why many like me are wary of the RFL , 25% of the sport England money will be allocated to the elite program yet the RFL can't find £ 50 in their budget to help the Nwc three youth and junior leagues to produce a banner for our Lancashire finals day we have to buy that our ourselves , we don't have a problem looking after ourselves we have done that for many years just goes up show were their priorities lie and take note of the sponsorship part of the OR it beggars belief .

Edited by TaxiEgg, 31 July 2013 - 11:53 PM.


#28 LordCharles

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:20 AM

I don't think this clarification of Legal status of the Leagues is the last we will hear about it, in fact its possibly the opening salvo in what will be the first push from the RFL for Leagues to nail their colours to the mast.

 

Clearly MOU's and Operational Rules are powerful documents in all of this and it looks as though the RFL are now gearing up for a definitive answer from the Leagues as to whether they are part of the RFL and their jurisdiction/control etc, or they are not.

 

Their is some considerable intent within the following also.........................

 

In the event that a League/Management Group/Competition refused to sign up to the Operational Rules, it was agreed that they would no longer be recognised as a sanctioned Rugby League competition and would lose the associated benefits as follows:
 
 Protection under any RFL policy, including safeguarding.
 
 Strategic development and administrative support from the Governing Body.
 
 Insurance for the teams within that Competition. This would include cover for all match officials officiating in that competition or any games sanctioned by that Management Group.
 
 Membership of the relevant Management Groups
 
 Protection, support or liability cover in any litigation or court proceedings.
 
It was agreed that these amendments would be drafted into the Operational Rules for agreement at the meeting in July.
 
 
Worryingly this has never been conveyed to the clubs or Leagues officially even though the operational rules have now been circulated.
 
It appears as I state earlier there is more to come and its starting to smack of an exercise in which the RFL are starting to turn the thumbscrews prior to the end of 2013.
 
It will certainly be interesting to see how much of the noise made by members of the NCL management committee on here is nothing more than hot air and bravado, especially when it comes to the crunch..............which incidently does'nt appear to far away now.
 
Whilst the RFL might not be very good at understanding the needs of the game, what they are very good at are the politics and manouvering to put themselves in to positions to suit their overall needs, particularly funding.
 
Del Boy............I hope you have dusted off your tin hat and inserted those eyes in the back of your head, because for all the stuff you spout on here very soon you and the rest of the NCL crew are going to be in a tight corner courtesy of the RFL, what you do then will be very interesting.
 
I'm sure your stock answer will be..........."we represent the clubs and the clubs will decide", but we all know its not that simple given the RFL's current stance in wanting commitments from Leagues and where, in the RFL's opinion, it will leave them if they don't commit!!!

Edited by LordCharles, 01 August 2013 - 07:20 AM.


#29 del capo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:30 AM

Considering that the NCL has at least one full time RFL employee concentrating their efforts on NCL business you get the feel of how independently run the NCL is. What we must remember in this is that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

And who represents the NCL on the RFL Community Del Boy, are they an affiliate member through BARLA as they remain associate to that organisation.

 The NCL have had an administrator paid for by the RFL for over 15 years , following the 'deal ' struck between them and Lindsay securing the temporary future of demising pro clubs such as Chorley.. Smart move at the time as far as I'm concerned . At least 150k over that period of time towards admin costs alone ?

 

The NCL Chair Trevor Hunt represents them and the rest of the Tier 3 clubs at the Community Board Nev  -  I think you know that.

 

The NCL are affiliate totheRFL through their playing status just like for instance NWC ( winter ) . Most RFL member Leagues are the creation of the RFL when existing playing Leagues refused the opportunity of administering a playing format ( s ) that would incorporate a 12 month season - in reality some form of summer competition - under their banner . That for me was a tactical mistake , but not my territory.  There are however some signs of a softening if not a  courtship  between the summer and winter playing Leagues  of the game in Yorkshire and surely that is positive ?

 

The NCL is an associate member of Barla .The clubs remain affiliate .That is the constitutional position and unlikely to change.

 

I'll agree with you on free lunches to a point . Free lunches are a marketing tool , a promotion , an inducement . But who is to say that if  at the end of the day you are presented with a bill you are obliged to pay ?

 

Lord Charles , may I suggest you actually gain some experience by getting yourself voted on to your own Leagues management and maybe even securing it's future ( it is under threat ) before  preaching to the NCL Management Committee as to it's own way forward ?



#30 LordCharles

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:40 AM

Lord Charles , may I suggest you actually gain some experience by getting yourself voted on to your own Leagues management and maybe even securing it's future ( it is under threat ) before  preaching to the NCL Management Committee as to it's own way forward ?

 

 

Del.......I have, as you are probably aware, plenty of experience, I am also VERY AWARE of the jockeying for position from some parties and various scenarios that could play out in relation to the League with which you refer to as being "Under threat".

 

What I will say is this...............should I and others similar to myself become involved in that League, then the clubs will, without question, DECIDE exactly which direction they wish to proceed in and nothing will be kept strategically away from them, as without all the information available to them they cannot form a sound opinion on what is in their best interests.

 

But please let us not digress from the topic of discussion relating to the Legal status of the Leagues as there are far more questions than answers at this moment in time...........would'nt you agree?


Edited by LordCharles, 01 August 2013 - 07:53 AM.


#31 del capo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:26 PM

Del.......I have, as you are probably aware, plenty of experience, I am also VERY AWARE of the jockeying for position from some parties and various scenarios that could play out in relation to the League with which you refer to as being "Under threat".

 

What I will say is this...............should I and others similar to myself become involved in that League, then the clubs will, without question, DECIDE exactly which direction they wish to proceed in and nothing will be kept strategically away from them, as without all the information available to them they cannot form a sound opinion on what is in their best interests.

 

But please let us not digress from the topic of discussion relating to the Legal status of the Leagues as there are far more questions than answers at this moment in time...........would'nt you agree?

 I''ll agree with you that a lots going on at present.

 

I hope I have already answered the question raised in this thread in unequivical terms. The NCL are affiliated to, not owned by , the RFL.

 

As to the issue of getting involved , all I can say is this -  you will be in a far better position to argue a corner and represent club interests if you are in an elected position .  Democracy makes you accountable but also gives you a mandate to take things forward. Taxi Egg for instance as Chair of his League is certainly no nodding donkey when decisions need to be made in his sphere of influence......ultimately it's an issue of trust . We may all pour over the niceties of paperwork and as you put it ' jockeying' on these forums but the reality is that the vast majority of clubs simply want a soundly run competition in which they can play decent regular properly controlled  rugby to a standard that suits them..

 

Administrators and committee members sometimes ping pong on forums such as this because they're too old to pull on their boots anymore.

 

And as to your own Leagues issues , as I posted previously , are some of them not now already being resolved  ' off the park '     ;)



#32 LordCharles

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

And as to your own Leagues issues , as I posted previously , are some of them not now already being resolved  ' off the park '     ;)

 

Del.........we are more than aware of the shananigans that are going on behind closed doors, but what those involved forget is...........its the clubs that decide ;)

 

Trying to circumvent constitution is one thing........doing it is another!



#33 del capo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:30 PM

 

I don't think this clarification of Legal status of the Leagues is the last we will hear about it, in fact its possibly the opening salvo in what will be the first push from the RFL for Leagues to nail their colours to the mast.

 

Clearly MOU's and Operational Rules are powerful documents in all of this and it looks as though the RFL are now gearing up for a definitive answer from the Leagues as to whether they are part of the RFL and their jurisdiction/control etc, or they are not.

 

Their is some considerable intent within the following also.........................

 

In the event that a League/Management Group/Competition refused to sign up to the Operational Rules, it was agreed that they would no longer be recognised as a sanctioned Rugby League competition and would lose the associated benefits as follows:
 
 Protection under any RFL policy, including safeguarding.
 
 Strategic development and administrative support from the Governing Body.
 
 Insurance for the teams within that Competition. This would include cover for all match officials officiating in that competition or any games sanctioned by that Management Group.
 
 Membership of the relevant Management Groups
 
 Protection, support or liability cover in any litigation or court proceedings.
 
It was agreed that these amendments would be drafted into the Operational Rules for agreement at the meeting in July.
 
 
Worryingly this has never been conveyed to the clubs or Leagues officially even though the operational rules have now been circulated.
 
It appears as I state earlier there is more to come and its starting to smack of an exercise in which the RFL are starting to turn the thumbscrews prior to the end of 2013.
 
It will certainly be interesting to see how much of the noise made by members of the NCL management committee on here is nothing more than hot air and bravado, especially when it comes to the crunch..............which incidently does'nt appear to far away now.
 
Whilst the RFL might not be very good at understanding the needs of the game, what they are very good at are the politics and manouvering to put themselves in to positions to suit their overall needs, particularly funding.
 
Del Boy............I hope you have dusted off your tin hat and inserted those eyes in the back of your head, because for all the stuff you spout on here very soon you and the rest of the NCL crew are going to be in a tight corner courtesy of the RFL, what you do then will be very interesting.
 
I'm sure your stock answer will be..........."we represent the clubs and the clubs will decide", but we all know its not that simple given the RFL's current stance in wanting commitments from Leagues and where, in the RFL's opinion, it will leave them if they don't commit!!!

 

 

Not a bad assessment Lord Charles

 

I've had to have eyes in the back of my head for a long time , and I'll be the first to admit that  you can't see everything coming.......

 

In the good old times at Barla the first request an incoming Chair would have of the vice chair was invariably  ' Watch my back while I get on with it ' 

 

I wonder if that still happens these days ?

 

But you're right about the general line of travel . Game governance was passed to the RFL in 2004 ( so anything raised re that will be batted away ) , the Silsden tragedy is almost 4 years old and the game still lacks a Common Code. It's now all out for final consultation and by October there will be a full set in place for implementation next March . Time for reasoned responses before the drafts become final............



#34 Marauder

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:20 PM

Not a bad assessment Lord Charles

 

I've had to have eyes in the back of my head for a long time , and I'll be the first to admit that  you can't see everything coming.......

 

In the good old times at Barla the first request an incoming Chair would have of the vice chair was invariably  ' Watch my back while I get on with it ' 

 

I wonder if that still happens these days ?

 

But you're right about the general line of travel . Game governance was passed to the RFL in 2004 ( so anything raised re that will be batted away ) , the Silsden tragedy is almost 4 years old and the game still lacks a Common Code. It's now all out for final consultation and by October there will be a full set in place for implementation next March . Time for reasoned responses before the drafts become final............

Why the BARLA comment ?

 

Have BARLA's action's forced the NCL committee into sending the draft Operational Rules out to their clubs before Tony gets back from his holiday's and the NCL committee make their recommendations?

 

Only asking because BARLA managed to distribute the draft operational rules a couple of days earlier than the NCL committee and  I'm not a gambling man but I'd bet that the draft issue must have been in the NCL committee's  possession for at least two weeks.


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#35 del capo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:48 PM

Why the BARLA comment ?

 

Have BARLA's action's forced the NCL committee into sending the draft Operational Rules out to their clubs before Tony gets back from his holiday's and the NCL committee make their recommendations?

 

Only asking because BARLA managed to distribute the draft operational rules a couple of days earlier than the NCL committee and  I'm not a gambling man but I'd bet that the draft issue must have been in the NCL committee's  possession for at least two weeks.

 

That massive chip on your shoulder showing again Marauder.

 

Barla have had the paperwork at least as long as the NCL , and well before the Community Board confirmation that beyond doubt all stakeholder clubs should be consulted. Sue Taylor duly noted that authorization and actioned , as did the NCL through their next scheduled  Management meeting - it was always an agenda item anyway. And certainly not a race to the respective memberships.. Simply due process by both organisations.

 

I can count on less than one hand the number of times Barla have introduced an initiative in the last 10 years that has moved the NCL forward. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

That said Sue Taylor's approach seems to be refreshing and who knows what might develop ? But she needs someone riding ' shotgun ' by her side - hence my reference to those Barla top table discussions of the past . Simply taking everything back to Barla meetings will result in the continuing stagnation that marked the last reign.

 

She has the mandate to make a mark. The window of opportunity is there. I hope she takes it - and do you know what , I think she just might.... ............



#36 mmp

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:36 PM

[quote name="Marauder" post="2759002" timestamp="


Only asking because BARLA managed to distribute the draft operational rules a couple of days earlier than the NCL committee.[/quote]

The NW Mens League sent the rules out before BARLA. It's a disgrace. BARLA was forced to distribute the doc because the NW Men's League did

(Your logic by the way)
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#37 LordCharles

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:56 PM

The NW Mens League sent the rules out before BARLA. It's a disgrace. BARLA was forced to distribute the doc because the NW Men's League did

(Your logic by the way)

 

The NW Mens League is an official RFL League, not a League affiliated to the RFL through BARLA or another entity, so I'm struggling to see you gripe at BARLA.

 

Granted there may be BARLA affiliated Clubs within the NW Mens League, but the New BARLA Chair needed to go to the Community Board meeting earlier in July and get to grips with the workings etc prior to sending out paperwork that even she probably had'nt seen very much of in her very brief tenure so far.



#38 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

Game governance was passed to the RFL in 2004 ( so anything raised re that will be batted away ) , the Silsden tragedy is almost 4 years old and the game still lacks a Common Code. It's now all out for final consultation and by October there will be a full set in place for implementation next March . Time for reasoned responses before the drafts become final............

 

So game governance passed to the RFL in 2004 did it Del, well they seem to have trod water for almost ten years before they decided that they needed joined up writing in the form of these operational rules.

 

And to think that they're treading on moralistic thin ice by; quoting a player  who sadly died through an injury in a game by name, as the reason that these 32 pages of operational rules are needed and then include just four paragraphs amounting to just around 200 words on medical requirements.

 

All well and good for the RFL to conclude that it was not only the right thing to do but that it was imperative to protect Community Game players that one set of rules governing all operational matters

 

Okay then Del sound medical requirements which - if put into practise - could lessen the chance of another similar occurence, but just how are we going to prevent a tragedy by agreeing;

A4:1 The Clubs agreeing that the RFL shall have the right and power to enter into all forms of sponsorship, advertising, broadcasting and other commercial contracts relating directly to any Relevant Competition. The Clubs agree to grant the RFL and its partners reasonable access to their facilities in order to exercise such rights

 

Or by;

B1:2:1   The RFL etermining the date of commencement of the Season and the date on which it shall cease. Any application to play outside of these dates must be approved by the respective Management Group.

 

Or even by:

C1:5:5   Clubs may register new adult Players on the actual match day provided that the Registration Form is duly completed in accordance with standardised regulations and is initialled by the appointed Referee and together, with post match documentation, released immediately after the match to the Relevant Competitions Administrator.

 

 

It's sad then Del that the RFL try to use such a tragic event as the reason to bring in these rules

 

 

 


Edited by Nev V Dawn, 01 August 2013 - 09:59 PM.


#39 del capo

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:02 AM

OK Once a Ref.

 

That's it for me . The  non NCL Trolls have finally taken the bridge. I had hoped that sharing info / ideas whilst maintaining confidentiality would have been of some use or even entertainment but this forum is totally screwed so I'm out of it at least until it gets back to what it used to be like.

 

For any genuine NCL people with issues just visit the contacts list on our website. The reps there will certainly help....

 

Enjoy your day......



#40 once a ref always a ref

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:35 AM

 I am surprised you have lasted so long, this forum used to be buzzing with banter, humour, predictions, ref baiting, match reports, jokes, etc.   Unfortunately is is now a soapbox for a handful of demented crusaders, it is so repetitive and tiresome.

  I will see the season out. 


Edited by once a ref always a ref, 02 August 2013 - 08:36 AM.

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