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George w bush

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#21 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 04:28 PM

Why would I not be serious? You must have been exploring Antarctica for the past decade to have missed the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Any aid given to Africa to fight diseases and the global HIV/aids pandemic is drowned in the blood of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed and wounded in bush's Iraq war. Do you have anything to say about the killing and maiming of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis or is it ok because they're just Arabs/Muslims/Iraqis and there blood is cheap compared to westerners?

At the time of the invasion of Iraq, that country was ruled by an increasingly unstable dictator who had proved his mettle by invading a neighbour and having to be forced out of that country, while boasting about his stock of weapons of mass destruction and threatening what he might do with them.

 

As it turned out, he was a fantasist in relation to the weapons, but his regime terrorised his own people, having killed many of them, and threatened its neighbours, as we've seen with Kuwait and Iran.

 

Many of his own people, not to mention his neighbours, wanted him out, and are very glad to this day to have got rid of him.

 

Unfortunately sectarian divisions continue to dog Iraq, and there are still far too many deaths there from suicide bombings.

 

The Americans probably didn't understand how they were lifting the lid off a powder keg, and there's no doubt that there were massive failings in how they handled the whole process.

 

But to call the overthrow of Saddam Hussein a war crime is almost to pervert the meaning of the term, in my view.

 

And your last sentence just makes you look silly.



#22 walter sobchak

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

Any of them.
 
The Yanks have to take their share of the blame for destroying the Iraqi regime but the bulk of the blame lies with those carrying out the sectarian violence on their fellow Iraqis. The vast majority of deaths had very little to do with the Americans either before the pull-out or after the pull-out.
 
I'm no fan of Blair but he had a point when he said that the violence would have happened anyway when the Arab spring came along. Is the death toll in Syria any lower than Iraq?

Of course a large part of the sectarian violence was/is carried out by al qaeda in Iraq, a group that didn't exist in Iraq prior to the 2003 US/UK invasion of Iraq. Also again prior to the US/UK invasion sectarianism was unheard of in Iraq as there was large numbers of Sunni/Shia mixed neighbourhoods in Baghdad, Mosul, fallujah etc as was Sunni-shia intermarriage.

#23 Phil

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:37 PM

You're certainly right in one sense.

 

Despite everything he did in the fight against Aids, Bush never sought any particular credit for it.

 

He doesn't seem comfortable posing as a "statesman", and he has a self-deprecating sense of humour.

 

He is quite unlike many other politicians in not having an outsized ego.

 

 

I was being sarcastic


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#24 gingerjon

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:51 PM

 

 

He is quite unlike many other politicians in not having an outsized ego.

 

The George W Bush Presidential Center

 

BushInstituteSupport.jpg


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#25 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:08 PM

Of course a large part of the sectarian violence was/is carried out by al qaeda in Iraq, a group that didn't exist in Iraq prior to the 2003 US/UK invasion of Iraq. Also again prior to the US/UK invasion sectarianism was unheard of in Iraq as there was large numbers of Sunni/Shia mixed neighbourhoods in Baghdad, Mosul, fallujah etc as was Sunni-shia intermarriage.

This is pure nonsense.

 

Sectarianism existed in Iraq before the invasion, any cursory glance at the history of Iraq under Saddam would tell you that. Saddam's government was a Sunni government. Could you explain why the Shi'ia rose up against Saddam after the first gulf war but the Sunni did not?

 

Al Qaeda in Iraq did not exist but making out that their existence is soley the fault of the USA is particularly one-eyed. Nothing to do with the Iraqis who joined up, the Syrians who supplied them or the Shi'ite Iraqis for alienating the Sunnis?



#26 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:09 PM

The George W Bush Presidential Center

 

BushInstituteSupport.jpg

Yeah but tbf you'll see a lot of buildings like that in North America because space is cheap.



#27 gingerjon

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:12 PM

Yeah but tbf you'll see a lot of buildings like that in North America because space is cheap.

 

It's the second biggest of these grotesque presidential library, museum things.  The biggest is Reagan's.  Another awww, shucks homespun politico.


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#28 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:17 PM

It's the second biggest of these grotesque presidential library, museum things.  The biggest is Reagan's.  Another awww, shucks homespun politico.

Reagan was a Californian. Clinton was the redneck President.



#29 Larry the Leit

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:41 PM

Martyn does so like a debate.

#30 gingerjon

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:42 PM

Reagan being Californian doesn't stop him being another awww, shucks homespun politico.  That's pretty much exactly what he was.

 

I have no strong opinions either way on Clinton.


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#31 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:52 PM

Reagan was a Californian. Clinton was the redneck President.

Would that be Rhodes scholar Clinton

Redneck is as redneck does

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 07 August 2013 - 07:53 PM.

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#32 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:06 PM

Would that be Rhodes scholar Clinton

Redneck is as redneck does

Redneck is not necessarily a pejorative term. Clinton played very much on his poor rural roots as a politician. He was also a very intelligent man.



#33 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:10 PM

Reagan being Californian doesn't stop him being another awww, shucks homespun politico.  That's pretty much exactly what he was.

 

I have no strong opinions either way on Clinton.

California has quite a different identity. Whereas Clinton could present himself as a non-racist good-old-boy-made-good and milk it for what it was worth; and Bush could play on his tough-talking-cowboy image (ironically his family were from New England); there is no corresponding folksy but wise stereotype for California. Californians are hippies. Reagan was a good communicator but he had no regional stereotype to draw upon.



#34 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:09 PM

It's an interesting notion that it's OK to invade a country, which leads directly to 1000's of deaths and indirectly to 100,000 more, which fails in every stated aim bar one (removing saddam), which leads to greater instability, etc, as long as you something 'good'.

 

Iraq = very bad thing

AIDS relief = very good thing

 

Does doing the latter make it OK to to the former?  It's an interesting idea.

 

As for war crimes, 'we' won so extremely unlikely, plus 'big' counties have enough clout to avoid them. 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#35 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:11 PM

 

As for war crimes, 'we' won so extremely unlikely, plus 'big' counties have enough clout to avoid them. 

You missed out the main factor which is "not having done anything that constitutes a war crime".



#36 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:11 PM

California has quite a different identity. Whereas Clinton could present himself as a non-racist good-old-boy-made-good and milk it for what it was worth; and Bush could play on his tough-talking-cowboy image (ironically his family were from New England); there is no corresponding folksy but wise stereotype for California. Californians are hippies. Reagan was a good communicator but he had no regional stereotype to draw upon.

He used a national '1950's' stereotype, of a world of apple pies, swimming in the creek, running through corn feilds, etc.  Folksy old world charm, where guy's said ma'am and sir.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#37 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

You missed out the main factor which is "not having done anything that constitutes a war crime".

I think it's generous to say that the invasion was on shaky ground legally.  Falling back on an old resolution, that could be stretched was iffy to say the least.  GWB didn't even want a resolution or see the need to involve the UN.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#38 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:18 PM

I think it's generous to say that the invasion was on shaky ground legally.  Falling back on an old resolution, that could be stretched was iffy to say the least.  GWB didn't even want a resolution or see the need to involve the UN.

It wasn't stretched, it was ambiguously worded.

 

At the end of the first gulf war, the Americans wanted a "We can come back and kick your ass if we want to" clause put into the peace terms. The French were strongly opposed. The resulting fudge could be both argued to legitimise W's war and also argued not to precisely because that is what it was designed to do. Hence the attorney general of the UK was in two minds over whether the war was legal or not.

 

Of course it should be noted that fighting an illegal war isn't actually a war crime and thus there is nothing to charge Bush or indeed Blair with.



#39 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:20 PM

He used a national '1950's' stereotype, of a world of apple pies, swimming in the creek, running through corn feilds, etc.  Folksy old world charm, where guy's said ma'am and sir.

True but remember that he actually was from that era. He was unusually old when he took office and there were 3 Presidential terms (1 Bush Senior, 2 Clinton) separating him from GWB. He was a totally different generation from GWB, possibly even two generations different.



#40 Phil

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:45 PM

He's a semi-literate alchoholic drug abuser who thinks there's "Uhmurica , airstrip 1 (great Britain) and the rest"

 

Yeah great to have his finger on the button.

 

The present incumbent of that position? Meh, more of "Uhmurican" foreign policy


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