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#41 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:55 PM

It's an interesting notion that it's OK to invade a country, which leads directly to 1000's of deaths and indirectly to 100,000 more, which fails in every stated aim bar one (removing saddam), which leads to greater instability, etc, as long as you something 'good'.

 

Iraq = very bad thing

AIDS relief = very good thing

 

Does doing the latter make it OK to to the former?  It's an interesting idea.

 

As for war crimes, 'we' won so extremely unlikely, plus 'big' counties have enough clout to avoid them. 

If a country is threatening the rest of the world, what's the alternative?

 

We tried the alternative with Germany in the 30s, and many of our fathers and grandfathers paid a heavy price.

 

The problem is that we don't know what would have happened in Iraq if we hadn't invaded.

 

Maybe it would have been a good outcome, but we'll never know.



#42 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:14 PM

He's a semi-literate alchoholic drug abuser who thinks there's "Uhmurica , airstrip 1 (great Britain) and the rest"

 

Yeah great to have his finger on the button.

 

The present incumbent of that position? Meh, more of "Uhmurican" foreign policy

Bush gained a degree in history from Yale and then an MBA from Harvard Business School. He was the only American president to have gained an MBA.

 

He was a waster, to a great extent, in his younger days.

 

But to suggest he is semi-literate is to believe the nonsense written about him by uninformed critics.

 

In fact he is an assiduous reader, as Karl Rove makes clear in this article: http://online.wsj.co...5706634689.html



#43 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:20 PM

If a country is threatening the rest of the world, what's the alternative?

 

We tried the alternative with Germany in the 30s, and many of our fathers and grandfathers paid a heavy price.

 

The problem is that we don't know what would have happened in Iraq if we hadn't invaded.

 

Maybe it would have been a good outcome, but we'll never know.

I think the one thing we did know was that Iraq is not comparable with Hitler and Germany in any way and was not threatening the world.

 

In terms of industrial might, capability, resourses, etc.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#44 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:26 PM

I think the one thing we did know was that Iraq is not comparable with Hitler and Germany in any way and was not threatening the world.

 

In terms of industrial might, capability, resourses, etc.  

I'm surprised you say that.

 

Iraq invaded its neighbour, rather like Germany. It went to war with its neighbours, rather like Germany. Saddam made clear his hatred of Jews, and threatened to annihilate them, rather like Hitler.

 

Saddam liked to boast about the power of his military, rather like Hitler did.

 

 

Admittedly he wasn't as near to us as Germany was.

 

And, as it turned out, his military wasn't the threat that he suggested.

 

But there were some strong similarities.



#45 gingerjon

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:32 PM

I'm surprised you say that.

 

Iraq invaded its neighbour, rather like Germany. It went to war with its neighbours, rather like Germany. Saddam made clear his hatred of Jews, and threatened to annihilate them, rather like Hitler.

 

Saddam liked to boast about the power of his military, rather like Hitler did.

 

 

Admittedly he wasn't as near to us as Germany was.

 

And, as it turned out, his military wasn't the threat that he suggested.

 

But there were some strong similarities.

You missed out that he had a moustache and spoke funny.


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#46 gingerjon

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:33 PM

Bush gained a degree in history from Yale and then an MBA from Harvard Business School. He was the only American president to have gained an MBA.

 

He was a waster, to a great extent, in his younger days.

 

But to suggest he is semi-literate is to believe the nonsense written about him by uninformed critics.

 

In fact he is an assiduous reader, as Karl Rove makes clear in this article: http://online.wsj.co...5706634689.html

 

Karl Rove is hardly an independent commentator.

 

MBAs are worthless.


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#47 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:45 PM

You missed out that he had a moustache and spoke funny.

Absolutely! 

 

Well spotted!



#48 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:45 PM

If a country is threatening the rest of the world, what's the alternative?

 

We tried the alternative with Germany in the 30s, and many of our fathers and grandfathers paid a heavy price.

 

The problem is that we don't know what would have happened in Iraq if we hadn't invaded.

 

Maybe it would have been a good outcome, but we'll never know.

 

 

If a country is threatening the rest of the world, what's the alternative?

 

We tried the alternative with Germany in the 30s, and many of our fathers and grandfathers paid a heavy price.

 

The problem is that we don't know what would have happened in Iraq if we hadn't invaded.

 

Maybe it would have been a good outcome, but we'll never know.

there is no comparison between Iraq in the early 21st century  and the germany of 1930s

 

also if we went to war with a country on the basis of 'well you never know what they might do' then we would be at war all the time.

 

Presumably you are in favour of military action against North Korea.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 08 August 2013 - 07:06 PM.

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#49 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

Karl Rove is hardly an independent commentator.

 

MBAs are worthless.

Depends where you get them from.



#50 Phil

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

Bush gained a degree in history from Yale and then an MBA from Harvard Business School. He was the only American president to have gained an MBA.

 

He was a waster, to a great extent, in his younger days.

 

But to suggest he is semi-literate is to believe the nonsense written about him by uninformed critics.

 

In fact he is an assiduous reader, as Karl Rove makes clear in this article: http://online.wsj.co...5706634689.html

 

 

Ok i was wrong, he's one of the greatest figures of modern times  :biggrin:


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#51 gingerjon

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:50 PM

Depends where you get them from.

 

I admit that if you picked one up from the dustbin rather than wasted your time spending a fortune you'd show greater business awareness than any MBA grad in history.


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#52 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:50 PM

there is no comparison between Iraq in the early 20th century  and the germany of 1930s

 

also if we went to war with a country on the basis of 'well you never know what they might do' then we would be at war all the time.

 

Presumably you are in favour of military action against North Korea.

I've outlined what the comparisons were.

 

If you don't think those comparisons are valid, then explain why.

 

But don't just make an unsupported assertion, unless you really are comparing Germany in the 1930s with Iraq in the early 20th century.



#53 gingerjon

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:50 PM

 

 

Presumably you are in favour of military action against North Korea.

 

Dialogue is never the answer.  Martyn has, ironically, said so.


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#54 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:51 PM

I see Martyn's "debating" again.

#55 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:52 PM

Ok i was wrong, he's one of the greatest figures of modern times  :biggrin:

I don't share your revised view.

 

But I do think that most politicians who get to the top of the greasy pole are not as stupid as we sometimes like to portray them, regardless of which party we are talking about.



#56 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:52 PM

I see Martyn's "debating" again.

You are allowed to join in.



#57 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:12 PM

I've outlined what the comparisons were.

 

If you don't think those comparisons are valid, then explain why.

 

But don't just make an unsupported assertion, unless you really are comparing Germany in the 1930s with Iraq in the early 20th century.

 

 

I've outlined what the comparisons were.

 

If you don't think those comparisons are valid, then explain why.

 

But don't just make an unsupported assertion, unless you really are comparing Germany in the 1930s with Iraq in the early 20th century.

you know I meant 21st

Iraq didn't exist until after world war 1

 

you could have used the same or similar comparisons about any dictatorship from the present or from history

 

I don't think Hussein instituted the industrial disposal of jews, gypsies, gays, and so on

I don't think He was out for world domination governed by a master race

 

he was the psychopathic dictator of a small but wealthy country.

 

do you think on the basis that we went to war against Iraq and in the light on your own views regarding evil dangerous dictatorships that we should attack North Korea? 


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#58 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:41 PM

You are allowed to join in.


I don't know enough about the subject to contribute. It's not stopped others though.

#59 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:53 PM

I'm surprised you say that.

 

Iraq invaded its neighbour, rather like Germany. It went to war with its neighbours, rather like Germany. Saddam made clear his hatred of Jews, and threatened to annihilate them, rather like Hitler.

 

Saddam liked to boast about the power of his military, rather like Hitler did.

 

I am (like others it seems) surprised by your surprise.

 

Iraq invaded Kuwait and went to a proxy war with Iran.  Germany invaded most of Europe.

 

Iraq was defeated and thrown out of Kuwait in months.  It's war with Iran was hardly a glowing military success. 

 

You are comparing a Tinpot dictatorship with one of mightiest powers Europe has ever seen.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#60 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:03 PM

But to stretch the analogy that Saddam and Iraq was Hitler and Germany in waiting...

 

Iraq had been restricted by sanctions for a decade, he had no new tanks, planes, etc.  His best equipment was either destroyed in GW1 or ten years later was even more obsolete.

 

The no-fly zones concept had been stretched for years to allow the systematic destruction of any military equipment from tanks to bunkers.  Iraq was bombed on a regular basis in the name of the no-fly zone. 

 

Part of his country was (and still is) controlled by the Kurds. 

 

He couldn't move north due to the Kurds and the non-fly zone.  South was restricted by the non fly zone and a modern Kuwait.  He could of tried it on with Iran or Saudi, but I think you can work out how well that would of gone.

 

Germany on the other hand had the most modern, prepared and trained army in the world and the desire and manpower to do what it wanted.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!




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