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Not good news for the Dinosaurs


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36 replies to this topic

#21 keighley

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:52 PM

They've lasted longer than some of their opponents.

 

Fulham-Cardiff-23.03.83-rugby-L.jpg

 

Quite and the shirt in your picture is from a 2nd division game.



#22 keighley

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:57 PM

The Broncos, however poor they might be, do still offer a stepping stone for young southerners to make it in the game. You can come through the schools or community game down south, then play for the Broncos academy, Skolars, Hemel, Oxford etc, but there will still be a big chunk of lads who get that far, who are never going to be stars in the game.

 

Broncos gives lads a chance to see if they can go all the way, before they up sticks and move north, only to find out they can't really cut it anyway. If Clubb, Sarginson, Dixon etc, do leave Broncos for a decent SL side, then they may have been lost to the game totally if they hadn't had that opportunity at the Broncos to make the transition from age limited rugby to open age.

 

 With the return of p and r, the players you mention can develop in open age rugby in the championship and, if as good as advertised, will propel the Broncos back to SL where they can again test their abilities this time at SL level.



#23 Ackroman

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:58 PM

It seems to me that pro- Broncos rhetoric is about possibilities and potential without acknowledging how far the club hasn't gone in the past 10 years.

 

Reminds me on a new Jeep I had. When it drove it was fantastic but I was forever getting someone to tinker under the bonnet because it was unreliable so I part exchanged it. Someone out there has probably got a good runner but under my ownership and driving conditions it was a dog.

 

Roll on 2015.



#24 nec

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:41 PM

To be fair, discussing potential at London is more logical than discussing it at Halifax, featherstone or Leigh, all of whom have had 100+ years to develop
Rugby League is a sport that desperately needs to expand its geographical supporter base and its player base. This imperative means that all other requirements are secondary until this is done.

All power in the game should be with governing bodies, especially international governing bodies.

Without these actions we will remain a minor sport internationally and nationally.

#25 Ackroman

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:55 PM

To be fair, discussing potential at London is more logical than discussing it at Halifax, featherstone or Leigh, all of whom have had 100+ years to develop

 

Historical opportunities are irrelevant otherwise you have to apply the same "logic" for Huddersfield (for example), whose history never foretold their current fortune.

 

The other thing is that each of those clubs you mention have achieved success in the past. This does not mean they are destined to do so again, nor does it mean they won't.

 

I also believe the potential in London is better measured from the perspective of participation and the ability to host flagship finals and competitions, not London Broncos SL status.

 

Under these circumstances neither Halifax, Leigh or Fev could compete.


Edited by Ackroman, 08 August 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#26 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:55 PM

To be fair, discussing potential at London is more logical than discussing it at Halifax, featherstone or Leigh, all of whom have had 100+ years to develop


The 100 years argument is one of the biggest logical fallacies employed in Rugby League. It implies that successful clubs grow their fanbases gradually over the course of 100 years which is nonsense.

Most clubs in RL that have been around for a long time have had periods of success and periods of failure during the 100 years. Bradford are perhaps the perfect example, they've folded with crowds of a few hundred and been the biggest club in the game. Currently they look to be on a decline back down but it would be nonsense to pick where they are right now as proof of anything.

There are current clubs like Salford and Huddersfield that have been giants of RL in their 100 years and then suffered huge decline only to see some growth again. Then you have the opposite, at the turn of the century Warrington, Hull and Wakefield had done very little for their 100 years as Rugby League clubs. Between the 3 of them they averaged little more than 10,000 whereas now it would be over 30,000.

#27 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:01 PM

The Broncos, however poor they might be, do still offer a stepping stone for young southerners to make it in the game. You can come through the schools or community game down south, then play for the Broncos academy, Skolars, Hemel, Oxford etc, but there will still be a big chunk of lads who get that far, who are never going to be stars in the game.
 
Broncos gives lads a chance to see if they can go all the way, before they up sticks and move north, only to find out they can't really cut it anyway. If Clubb, Sarginson, Dixon etc, do leave Broncos for a decent SL side, then they may have been lost to the game totally if they hadn't had that opportunity at the Broncos to make the transition from age limited rugby to open age.


We all know the youth argument for the Broncos, it's been used for the last 10 years in contrast to poor performance on and off the field.

However, this argument cannot be used to prop up an eternally failing professional club and there has to be a cut off point. The fact ignored by the 'enlightened' is that London are going backwards. Their crowds are the lowest they have ever been in the 18 years they've been a top-flight club and they are currently bottom of the heap.

I understand the argument for a London club (although it gets weaker every year) but to suggest that anybody that argues against their continued inclusion is somehow a dinosaur flying in the face of progress is just ludicrous. A number of RL fans myself included have come to question the ability that they have to ever fulfil the apparent potential that they have.

How long do you persist and hope for the best before you are no longer a dinosaur to question it, 50 years, 75 years, 100 years?

#28 Quinskolar

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 04:39 PM

They've lasted longer than some of their opponents.

 

Fulham-Cardiff-23.03.83-rugby-L.jpg

Nice shirt though!



#29 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

We all know the youth argument for the Broncos, it's been used for the last 10 years in contrast to poor performance on and off the field.

However, this argument cannot be used to prop up an eternally failing professional club and there has to be a cut off point. The fact ignored by the 'enlightened' is that London are going backwards. Their crowds are the lowest they have ever been in the 18 years they've been a top-flight club and they are currently bottom of the heap.

I understand the argument for a London club (although it gets weaker every year) but to suggest that anybody that argues against their continued inclusion is somehow a dinosaur flying in the face of progress is just ludicrous. A number of RL fans myself included have come to question the ability that they have to ever fulfil the apparent potential that they have.

How long do you persist and hope for the best before you are no longer a dinosaur to question it, 50 years, 75 years, 100 years?

 

Oh, I'm not arguing that they should be propped up. We are currently in the 5th year of a six year licensing system. It was decided there would be 14 licences & I'd say they are one of the top 14 clubs in the game, so therefore deserve their license. We're now moving to a form of promotion & relegation and the RFL have confirmed that the rules will apply to them as well as every other club, so if they end up in a relegation spot, then they'll go down.

 

My point was that however woeful the Broncos currently are as a club, one of the things they do provide is a full-time employment opportunity for southerners to cut their teeth on to help them decide if they should try and make it big time in rugby league, which may well entail them upping sticks and looking for a job somewhere else (either in the north or down under). Without the Broncos in SL those players would need to take more of a gamble. That may or may not be important to the game. We'll have more of an idea in the next few years, when we see whether the current crop of young Broncos end up being as good as Martin Offiah's or as good as Joe Mbu.



#30 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:13 PM

Oh, I'm not arguing that they should be propped up. We are currently in the 5th year of a six year licensing system. It was decided there would be 14 licences & I'd say they are one of the top 14 clubs in the game, so therefore deserve their license. We're now moving to a form of promotion & relegation and the RFL have confirmed that the rules will apply to them as well as every other club, so if they end up in a relegation spot, then they'll go down.
 
My point was that however woeful the Broncos currently are as a club, one of the things they do provide is a full-time employment opportunity for southerners to cut their teeth on to help them decide if they should try and make it big time in rugby league, which may well entail them upping sticks and looking for a job somewhere else (either in the north or down under). Without the Broncos in SL those players would need to take more of a gamble. That may or may not be important to the game. We'll have more of an idea in the next few years, when we see whether the current crop of young Broncos end up being as good as Martin Offiah's or as good as Joe Mbu.


Like I said, I know all this but whilst regrettable it cannot be enough of a reason on its own to sustain a Super League club in an area. I accept that it can be used as part of an argument for inclusion but on its own it is not enough. The problem with London Broncos is that the other arguments are getting weaker and weaker. Where do you draw the line?

Promotion and relegation will sort it out I agree and I suspect that David Hughes will eventually sort it out for them. However to suggest that criticising the London club makes somebody a dinosaur is just ludicrous.

#31 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:17 PM

Historical opportunities are irrelevant otherwise you have to apply the same "logic" for Huddersfield (for example), whose history never foretold their current fortune.

 

The other thing is that each of those clubs you mention have achieved success in the past. This does not mean they are destined to do so again, nor does it mean they won't.

 

I also believe the potential in London is better measured from the perspective of participation and the ability to host flagship finals and competitions, not London Broncos SL status.

 

Under these circumstances neither Halifax, Leigh or Fev could compete.

 

 

Historical opportunities are irrelevant otherwise you have to apply the same "logic" for Huddersfield (for example), whose history never foretold their current fortune.

 

The other thing is that each of those clubs you mention have achieved success in the past. This does not mean they are destined to do so again, nor does it mean they won't.

 

I also believe the potential in London is better measured from the perspective of participation and the ability to host flagship finals and competitions, not London Broncos SL status.

 

Under these circumstances neither Halifax, Leigh or Fev could compete.

brilliant post


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#32 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:31 PM

I also believe the potential in London is better measured from the perspective of participation and the ability to host flagship finals and competitions, not London Broncos SL status.

Spot on. London Broncos, to me, have always seemed like distant cousins to the broader game in the capital. I think that over the years many of us have fallen for the idea that elite is everything, when in reality participation is a massive part of the equation.

Build a generation of Londoners that see league as their sport, and they'll help us build the next.

The one thing that London Broncos show us is that with 8 million people on the doorstep it's still possible to fail to sell the best sport in the world, and that the amateur game does not have a linear relationship with local top flight success.

Edited by Larry the Leit, 08 August 2013 - 06:35 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#33 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:37 PM

Spot on. London Broncos, to me, have always seemed like distant cousins to the broader game in the capital. I think that over the years many of us have fallen for the idea that elite is everything, when in reality participation is a massive part of the equation.

Build a generation of Londoners that see league as their sport, and they'll help us build the next.

The one thing that London Broncos show us is that with 8 million people on the doorstep it's still possible to fail to sell the best sport in the world, and that the amateur game does not have a linear relationship with local top flight success.

 

 

Spot on. London Broncos, to me, have always seemed like distant cousins to the broader game in the capital. I think that over the years many of us have fallen for the idea that elite is everything, when in reality participation is a massive part of the equation.

Build a generation of Londoners that see league as their sport, and they'll help us build the next.

The one thing that London Broncos show us is that with 8 million people on the doorstep it's still possible to fail to sell the best sport in the world, and that the amateur game does not have a linear relationship with local top flight success.

yes

but it would bother me if their place in SL was taken by yet another club from Wakefield MDC


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
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#34 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:42 PM

yes
but it would bother me if their place in SL was taken by yet another club from Wakefield MDC


Don't worry Frank, Westgate have ruled themselves out.
The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#35 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

Don't worry Frank, Westgate have ruled themselves out.

 

 

Don't worry Frank, Westgate have ruled themselves out.

there's an entire chapter about them in Downsie's book

it isn't pretty

do you still have the same email address?


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#36 Futtocks

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:46 AM

Nice shirt though!

Indeed! One of my favourite shirt designs.


A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#37 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 11:46 AM

I can see where you are coming from here but who will be watching this team ?

The numbers have dropped off due to the clubs incompetence at all levels with of course

the current exception of those running the academy it wouild seem.

I would say a good chunk  will just pack up if there is no Super League to watch with others filtered off

to Skolars if they dont watch them already or the Champinship one teams down here.

A good chunk are packing up anyway. Unless something dramatically changes off-the-field, the choice is CC side or no side, SL just won't be an option.

 

I prefer a decent community club over no club. I am surprised that you don't.


Edited by Northern Sol, 10 August 2013 - 11:47 AM.