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Who should replace London Broncos in Superleague 2014 ?


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#321 Ackroman

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:09 AM

I'm afraid all clubs do not have a "good and bad past". Wigan founded in the 1870's had 126 honours on the honour board come Superleague. Rochdale equally as old and established had 11. Wigan have always been a big club


It's not about the size of the club FFS. The argument is about the club having a sustainable future, over no club infrastructure.

Wigan have seen high's and lows FACT! Ask the fans who witnessed their relegation in 1980.

If you want to use history to bolster your arguments then utilise all the facts not just your selective ignorance.

#322 The Parksider

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:31 AM

Wigan have seen high's and lows FACT! Ask the fans who witnessed their relegation in 1980.

If you want to use history to bolster your arguments then utilise all the facts not just your selective ignorance.

 

Was this the "relegation" when Wigan finished above three other Div 1 clubs? Was this when they came straight back up?? Was this when their crowds improved despite relegation?? Was this 'blip' when they went on from bouncing back to posting 13 major honours in the same decade?

 

Ask the fans who witnessed Rochdale Hornets shutting down if there is any comparison at all between the lows of these two clubs?


Edited by The Parksider, 29 August 2013 - 11:37 AM.


#323 Pottsy

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:50 AM

This idea that "it's been tried and it hasn't worked" kind of overlooks the fact that at times it did seem to work pretty well.

I used to go watching the Broncos at The Valley and the gates were reasonably good ( certainly by today's standards) and the rugby was good. The biggest issue at that point was the lack of homegrown talent, with Dom Peters being one of the few locally produced player.

Ironically, the talent production seems to he working now but the gates have tailed off pretty dramatically.

Personally, I'd assign much of this to the suicidal Harlequins experiment, poor management and the pervading air of negativity and detachment that this has created.

One thing I've never understood about David Hughes is that he's bankrolled the playing roster to the tune of millions but has cut massive corners when it comes to coaching and off-field appointments.

#324 gingerjon

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:08 PM

You just can't help but contradict yourself. You argue that successful clubs should be given more money and unsuccessful ones should be cut off in the same thread that you argue that Broncos should be given extra cash by the RFL.


No, you can't but that just means that you can't.

Almost everybody else can.

 

Whether it's right or wrong the one thing that having a 'Broncos' play in Championship/Championship 1 will not do is 'grow' the club or grow rugby league.

 

There will be lower crowds, less income, much less awareness even compared to now, and a much, much harder route for local talent to Super League.


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#325 gingerjon

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:10 PM

This idea that "it's been tried and it hasn't worked" kind of overlooks the fact that at times it did seem to work pretty well.

I used to go watching the Broncos at The Valley and the gates were reasonably good ( certainly by today's standards) and the rugby was good. The biggest issue at that point was the lack of homegrown talent, with Dom Peters being one of the few locally produced player.

Ironically, the talent production seems to he working now but the gates have tailed off pretty dramatically.

Personally, I'd assign much of this to the suicidal Harlequins experiment, poor management and the pervading air of negativity and detachment that this has created.

One thing I've never understood about David Hughes is that he's bankrolled the playing roster to the tune of millions but has cut massive corners when it comes to coaching and off-field appointments.

 

I broadly agree with this.  The stars have never really aligned for Bronquins - there's always been something either not quite right or catastrophically wrong.  What the club has completely lost now though is the faith of its fans and I really can't see how it will get that back.  And that's before not having a clue how it's going to pick up any new ones.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#326 brooza

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:16 PM

I broadly agree with this.  The stars have never really aligned for Bronquins - there's always been something either not quite right or catastrophically wrong.  What the club has completely lost now though is the faith of its fans and I really can't see how it will get that back.  And that's before not having a clue how it's going to pick up any new ones.

I'd agree with that.

 

The thing that shocked me was the lack of presence at the Armed Forces World Cup in Colchester or the Wheelchair World Cup in Gillingham.

 

Bearing in mind the club have played matches in Gillingham for the last couple of years, I can't understand why they didn't have a couple of players there or the mascots at least.

 

Same with Colchester. That middle weekend had the Red Arrows, an artillery demonstration (which, I'm told, coincidentally went off a few seconds after Serbia scored their only try - How's that for a try celebration!), and plenty of other things going on. Not to send a couple of players, even injured players, just baffles me.


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#327 gingerjon

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:26 PM

Ian Ramsdale again


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#328 Ackroman

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 01:06 PM

Was this the "relegation" when Wigan finished above three other Div 1 clubs? Was this when they came straight back up?? Was this when their crowds improved despite relegation?? Was this 'blip' when they went on from bouncing back to posting 13 major honours in the same decade?
 
Ask the fans who witnessed Rochdale Hornets shutting down if there is any comparison at all between the lows of these two clubs?

For God's sake

#329 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 01:23 PM

I certainly cannot see how you can find "growth" for a club by moving them down the divisions?

Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward. The brand is damaged. It will not get better where they are. People see then as a failure on and off the pitch. They need a relaunch. People need to forget about their SL failings and jump on a new bandwagon with new momentum when they eventually get to a position to come back.

Sometimes you hit a dead end and have to go back around the other way. I think that's the case with the Broncos.
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#330 The Parksider

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 01:42 PM

Whether it's right or wrong the one thing that having a 'Broncos' play in Championship/Championship 1 will not do is 'grow' the club or grow rugby league.
 
There will be lower crowds, less income, much less awareness even compared to now, and a much, much harder route for local talent to Super League.


This

Plus how can the club gain any momentum and come back when relegation also means financial disaster (Ref Martyn Sadler).

Massive shame if they go and for me the only way to part rescue the situation is to get Toulouse in, anothr player pool that could lead to proper internationals.

#331 keighley

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:45 PM

This

Plus how can the club gain any momentum and come back when relegation also means financial disaster (Ref Martyn Sadler).

Massive shame if they go and for me the only way to part rescue the situation is to get Toulouse in, anothr player pool that could lead to proper internationals.

 

This will also be the case for Castleford, Hull KR, Widnes, Wakefield or anyone else who gets relegated. That's the price that is paid for failure.

 

Whilst it might be a massive shame if the Broncos go, it will also be a massive shame for those other clubs.

 

On the other hand it will be a great boost and a very positive step for any team that replace London, be it Toulouse, Featherstone. Halifax or whomever.

 

In the long term, it will be a test of the strength and corporate management in place at the Broncos, as to how they bounce back from any relegation. At least the opportunity will be there via p and r.

 

Castleford, Huddersfield and , long ago as you pointed out, Wigan bounced back and overcame the disaster of relegation.

 

Huddersfield and Wigan overcame it so well that they are in the top two or three in SL.

 

If London are relegated and cannot  bounce back, then maybe the underlying strength of the club was never good enough to begin with and they should not be in SL as a result.

 

RL in London will not die with the relegation of the Broncos. Fortunately, the roots that have been put down there are deeper than that from the amateurs, to the juniors, to the colleges and schools teams and the the CC1 clubs. There is a platform from which a SL club can re emerge in the future.



#332 Spicer

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 03:46 PM

This idea that "it's been tried and it hasn't worked" kind of overlooks the fact that at times it did seem to work pretty well.

I used to go watching the Broncos at The Valley and the gates were reasonably good ( certainly by today's standards) and the rugby was good. The biggest issue at that point was the lack of homegrown talent, with Dom Peters being one of the few locally produced player.

Ironically, the talent production seems to he working now but the gates have tailed off pretty dramatically.

Personally, I'd assign much of this to the suicidal Harlequins experiment, poor management and the pervading air of negativity and detachment that this has created.

One thing I've never understood about David Hughes is that he's bankrolled the playing roster to the tune of millions but has cut massive corners when it comes to coaching and off-field appointments.

 

 

I really dont think the name change made that much difference.

Its the poor decision making by those controlling it that have left the club in this precarious state

Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.

 .



#333 SE4Wire

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 04:33 PM

I think a lot of people forget that London is a really big city and far from homogenous. I would certainly agree the people of Twickenhan aren't that interested. Most of suburban south if the river is massive RU heartland and Quins aren't exactly doing badly in AP at the moment.

The people of London haven't rejected RL, it just doesn't enter the consciousness very often. Twickenham isn't the easiest place in the world to get to either unless you live in SW London which doesn't help get speculative fans. A lot of people seem to hill of it's not on the tube map it doesn't exist, I find that often with where I live in Brockley.

#334 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:01 PM

I really dont think the name change made that much difference.
Its the poor decision making by those controlling it that have left the club in this precarious state
Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
.


I know a lot of people who stopped going when they changed to name to Quins. I know a lot of people who carried on going but hated the moniker and coukd never really support the club in the same way.

Also the move back to the Stoop was a balls up as it was the last two times they made the same silly decision. Crowds always went down after relocating to Twickers and ghat was before the Quins RU machine was in full flow. Who can forget 3300 the week after reaching Wembley, or an average of just over 5k despite coming 2nd (and getting a larger average at Charlton the year before despite coming only 4th).

Who made the appalling decision to become Quins RL and move to the Stoop?

#335 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:19 PM

Whether it's right or wrong the one thing that having a 'Broncos' play in Championship/Championship 1 will not do is 'grow' the club or grow rugby league.
 
There will be lower crowds, less income, much less awareness even compared to now, and a much, much harder route for local talent to Super League.


I'm not sure anyone is arguing that it would be growth. I'm arguing that it is probably the best achievable outcome barring some last minute seventh cavalry in the form of a new backer with deep pockets.

If that doesn't happen then relegation is inevitable. The question is whether the club can be saved. I think it can.

#336 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:20 PM

Plus how can the club gain any momentum and come back when relegation also means financial disaster (Ref Martyn Sadler).


If you really wanted to know, you only need to post on the North Wales Crusaders forum.

#337 Spicer

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 10:32 PM

I presume it was Mr Lenaghan and Cartwright  who made that decision Lobby.

At that time of course the then Quins CEO Mark Evans was very supportive of our move there.

Seeing how he developed the BIG Game concept and seeing what a success its regarded as being its a pity

nobody at our Club tapped into his knowledge to further the development of our Club. Then again that would have

involved marketing and no shortage of hard work.

Equally look how Quins came on leaps and bounds under his stewardship,So Im sorry but we missed a trick there id say.

 

We even had a team then that won occassionally including giving some of the Big teams a bloody nose.

Those days have long since gone and Im afraid the rebrand taking us back to The Broncos name has

has been a miserable failure. .

What a cracking idea that was from Mr Mackay.And of course the crowds have fallen away much further to boot.

 

Now who would I have rather had as a CEO a Mark Evans or a Gus Mackay. ?

 

No contest is it not ?


Edited by Spicer, 29 August 2013 - 10:40 PM.


#338 Pottsy

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 05:27 AM

I really dont think the name change made that much difference.
Its the poor decision making by those controlling it that have left the club in this precarious state
Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
.


I can only speak personally on the name change but, although I was happy to temporarily switch my allegiance to the Broncos and travel to Charlton whilst I was living in London*, there's no way I'd have schlepped all the way to Twickenham to watch a team called Quins. I do know other fans who feel/felt the same way too.

#339 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:53 AM

I presume it was Mr Lenaghan and Cartwright who made that decision Lobby.
At that time of course the then Quins CEO Mark Evans was very supportive of our move there.
Seeing how he developed the BIG Game concept and seeing what a success its regarded as being its a pity
nobody at our Club tapped into his knowledge to further the development of our Club. Then again that would have
involved marketing and no shortage of hard work.
Equally look how Quins came on leaps and bounds under his stewardship,So Im sorry but we missed a trick there id say.

We even had a team then that won occassionally including giving some of the Big teams a bloody nose.
Those days have long since gone and Im afraid the rebrand taking us back to The Broncos name has
has been a miserable failure. .
What a cracking idea that was from Mr Mackay.And of course the crowds have fallen away much further to boot.

Now who would I have rather had as a CEO a Mark Evans or a Gus Mackay. ?

No contest is it not ?


Quins took the Broncos in because they knew they would fail (I'm presuming that they did a risk analysis with the RFU). Theyd just been relegated and needed cash to fund the stadium - Broncos were again their meal ticket to develop the stadium as they were in 1997. If Mark Evans was so keen on Quins RL, why did the RU club turn down the chance to buy into the club (thus making it a proper partnership like "Leeds Rugby"? Answer - they knew the Quins RL thing would fail and the money was coming in.
I'm glad Gus Mackay changed the name from the much hated Quins moniker, but it was a mistake to stay at the Stoop whilst doing this. They should have made a clean break from Twickers then whilst the brand still had cred. I'm assuming David Hughes made the decision to remain at the Stoop.

#340 gingerjon

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:57 AM

Quins took the Broncos in because they knew they would fail (I'm presuming that they did a risk analysis with the RFU). Theyd just been relegated and needed cash to fund the stadium - Broncos were again their meal ticket to develop the stadium as they were in 1997. If Mark Evans was so keen on Quins RL, why did the RU club turn down the chance to buy into the club (thus making it a proper partnership like "Leeds Rugby"? Answer - they knew the Quins RL thing would fail and the money was coming in.
I'm glad Gus Mackay changed the name from the much hated Quins moniker, but it was a mistake to stay at the Stoop whilst doing this. They should have made a clean break from Twickers then whilst the brand still had cred. I'm assuming David Hughes made the decision to remain at the Stoop.

 

Even by your standards this is ridiculousness.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012




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