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Syria and Obama


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#321 ckn

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:45 AM

What is becoming more and more apparent is that Assad is the lesser of two evils.

 

I think the motivation of the west now is to accelerate his retention in return for an amnesty for all Syrians. Then we will no longer have to pay the upkeep for a couple of million refugees

I think that's been apparent for some time.  There was a report on telly the other day about the rebels forcing Christian Syrians to convert to Islam then punishing them for their past sins.

 

I mentioned a few pages ago that I genuinely believe that without this civil war that Syria would be much like Turkey in a decade or so.  It's largely a secular country already where your religion isn't the most important qualifier for your continued survival.

 

On the handing over of the chemical weapons, unless he hands over the physical delivery components as well as the chemicals it's meaningless as they're so easy to replicate.


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#322 GeordieSaint

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:55 AM

This would leave Syria wide open for foreign military intervention.

 

There already is foreign military intervention in Syria. The Assad Regime is being kept afloat by the Iranians and Hezbollah plus with help from the Russians.

 

On the handing over of the chemical weapons, unless he hands over the physical delivery components as well as the chemicals it's meaningless as they're so easy to replicate.

 

I can't envisage that happening unless the Russians want to sell them some more...


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#323 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:12 AM

I think that's been apparent for some time.  There was a report on telly the other day about the rebels forcing Christian Syrians to convert to Islam then punishing them for their past sins.
 
I mentioned a few pages ago that I genuinely believe that without this civil war that Syria would be much like Turkey in a decade or so.  It's largely a secular country already where your religion isn't the most important qualifier for your continued survival.
 
On the handing over of the chemical weapons, unless he hands over the physical delivery components as well as the chemicals it's meaningless as they're so easy to replicate.


Turkey is a country where almost everybody is Muslim and they elected an "moderate" Islamist as President. Their President now uses brutal police tactics (someone died yesterday) to clamp down on peaceful demonstrations, orders a media black-out and likens protesters to terrorists (oh and they are in the pay of foreigners). A government minister was good enough to dispel any doubts by blaming the Jews (yes he actually did say that). Meanwhile there are growing clampdowns on un-Islamic activities such as alcohol and the government building more and more mosques. Oh and they prosecute people for blasphemy.

It is time to stop using Turkey as a model of how Islam could be pink and fluffy. It never was a model democracy and it certainly isn't now. It has had more than 50 years to comply with EU accession laws regarding human rights and democracy and hasn't managed to achieve even half of them, meanwhile former East European communist dictatorships managed in 15 years.

#324 ckn

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:39 AM

Turkey is a country where almost everybody is Muslim and they elected an "moderate" Islamist as President. Their President now uses brutal police tactics (someone died yesterday) to clamp down on peaceful demonstrations, orders a media black-out and likens protesters to terrorists (oh and they are in the pay of foreigners). A government minister was good enough to dispel any doubts by blaming the Jews (yes he actually did say that). Meanwhile there are growing clampdowns on un-Islamic activities such as alcohol and the government building more and more mosques. Oh and they prosecute people for blasphemy.

It is time to stop using Turkey as a model of how Islam could be pink and fluffy. It never was a model democracy and it certainly isn't now. It has had more than 50 years to comply with EU accession laws regarding human rights and democracy and hasn't managed to achieve even half of them, meanwhile former East European communist dictatorships managed in 15 years.

Turkey isn't "pink and fluffy", I think their behaviour is quite unacceptable in many areas but then that's more a question of morals and ethics rather than genuine concern for the country.  On brutal police tactics, someone with a point to prove could easily get plenty of evidence of Britain's police not being too good at protests, it all depends what point you have to prove.  Ask many miners about their opinions of police tactics in the 1980s.  On your point about someone dying in a peaceful protest at police hands, Ian Tomlinson didn't fall down and die on his own.  It's all how you look at things and the vested interest of who is reporting it.

 

Turkey is a fully democratic country, an active member of NATO, a long-standing ally of the West and has a military that has a history and culture of stepping in to slap down elected wannabe extremists.  I read one quote from a current Turkish General about him being generally content with the current politicians as they'd stabilised the economy, made the country the 17th largest global economy, tripled per-capita income and made Turkey the genuine regional power BUT if they tried to make the state an Islamic Republic then the military were more than ready to step in to depose him.

 

So... where would you prefer Syria moving towards as a country?  Turkey or Iran?


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#325 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:01 AM

Turkey isn't "pink and fluffy", I think their behaviour is quite unacceptable in many areas but then that's more a question of morals and ethics rather than genuine concern for the country.  On brutal police tactics, someone with a point to prove could easily get plenty of evidence of Britain's police not being too good at protests, it all depends what point you have to prove.  Ask many miners about their opinions of police tactics in the 1980s.  On your point about someone dying in a peaceful protest at police hands, Ian Tomlinson didn't fall down and die on his own.  It's all how you look at things and the vested interest of who is reporting it.


I think it is a case of Turkey not attracting much media attention in the UK and so people are unaware of what goes on there.

We're not talking about just the one death. There have been several. Don't expect any kind of investigation into the deaths either. The government has already declared that foreign backed terrorists are responsible for any deaths.

For the first few weeks of the protests whilst people were being beaten and killed (along with any journalists present) and lawyers were arrested for defending protesters, the Turkish TV channels were not showing any of the protests let alone the violence. They were too busy focusing on cooking programmes.

Hardly the same as 80s Britain let alone modern day Britain.
 

Turkey is a fully democratic country, an active member of NATO, a long-standing ally of the West and has a military that has a history and culture of stepping in to slap down elected wannabe extremists.  I read one quote from a current Turkish General about him being generally content with the current politicians as they'd stabilised the economy, made the country the 17th largest global economy, tripled per-capita income and made Turkey the genuine regional power BUT if they tried to make the state an Islamic Republic then the military were more than ready to step in to depose him.
 
So... where would you prefer Syria moving towards as a country?  Turkey or Iran?


Neither.

What you seem to have overlooked is the "fully democratic" country has a history of military coups. This is why the Islamist government purged its generals by arresting them on trumped up charges and sentenced them accordingly. I am amazed that a/ you think that a general threatening a military coup is something that happens in democratic states b/ you could find a current general who would say that after the purges.

The economic growth bit is true but the Islamisation and the political thuggery is also true.

#326 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:24 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16447625

This debunks the "fully democratic" bit.

Either the military has been plotting to bring down the elected government via a terrorist network or the Islamist government is using the courts to remove political opponents via trumped up charges. There is no other option.

Either way it is bizarre that so many people use Turkey as an example of a successful Muslim democracy. It is anything but. It has never been anything but a banana republic where secularism was enforced but military coups and the military friendly governments declared minorities not to exist (see they are "Mountain Turks"), banned their languages and sent people to prison for "insulting Turkishness" e.g. discussing the Ottoman genocide of Armenians.

#327 Steve May

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:27 AM

 I am amazed that a/ you think that a general threatening a military coup is something that happens in democratic states

 

There was a serious threat of a military coup in the UK in the mid 70s.


That's me.  I'm done.


#328 walter sobchak

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:28 AM

[quote name="GeordieSaint" post="2786222" timestamp="1378806939"]
There already is foreign military intervention in Syria. The Assad Regime is being kept afloat by the Iranians and Hezbollah plus with help from the Russians.
As opposed to the "rebels" being propped up by turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar with money, weapons and fighters.

Edited by walter sobchak, 10 September 2013 - 11:29 AM.


#329 Wolford6

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:48 AM

The Islamist regimes will ultimately be brought down like the Iron Curtain was ... not by guns but by Coca Cola, western pop music, western fashion,  western TV, internet porn  and Levi jeans. Their youngsters will refuse to put up with oppression from ageing theocrats. Iran will be the first to fall ... it has a very young population-range, national elections and a relatively good level of education. The rest will follow when their regimes can't be propped up by Iranian petrodollars. 

 

All we have to do is wait twenty years.


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#330 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:20 PM

There was a serious threat of a military coup in the UK in the mid 70s.


*trying hard not to laugh*

Go ahead enlighten me.

#331 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:22 PM

The Islamist regimes will ultimately be brought down like the Iron Curtain was ... not by guns but by Coca Cola, western pop music, western fashion,  western TV, internet porn  and Levi jeans. Their youngsters will refuse to put up with oppression from ageing theocrats. Iran will be the first to fall ... it has a very young population-range, national elections and a relatively good level of education. The rest will follow when their regimes can't be propped up by Iranian petrodollars. 
 
All we have to do is wait twenty years.


I would tend to agree with you but twenty years is too optimistic (except perhaps for Iran). I think countries need to go through Islamism before they reject it. Egypt, Syria etc haven't really had it yet.

#332 GeordieSaint

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:34 PM

As opposed to the "rebels" being propped up by turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar with money, weapons and fighters.

 

True. So why state that the removal of chemical weapons could potentially result in foreign military intervention, when it is already happening?


Edited by GeordieSaint, 10 September 2013 - 03:43 PM.

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#333 gingerjon

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:53 PM

There was a serious threat of a military coup in the UK in the mid 70s.

 

Don't be daft.

 

MI5 investigated themselves and found that they'd done nothing of the sort.

 

EDIT

 

But MI6 did plot against Ukip.  It's in the Spectator so that's bang on true.


Edited by gingerjon, 10 September 2013 - 03:55 PM.

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#334 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:03 PM

Don't be daft.
 
MI5 investigated themselves and found that they'd done nothing of the sort.


Since when was MI5 part of the military?
When did bugging equal a "military coup"?

#335 GeordieSaint

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:22 PM

Since when was MI5 part of the military?

 

I'd imagine it must have been at some point with a name like 'Military Intelligence'... :D ;)

 

(I know they were part of the War Office...)


Edited by GeordieSaint, 10 September 2013 - 04:22 PM.

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#336 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:29 PM

I'd imagine it must have been at some point with a name like 'Military Intelligence'... :D ;)
 
(I know they were part of the War Office...)


A long, long time ago perhaps but they've been part of the Home Office for decades and certainly were at the time of the Wilson "incident" (or "non-incident").

#337 GeordieSaint

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:40 PM

A long, long time ago perhaps but they've been part of the Home Office for decades and certainly were at the time of the Wilson "incident" (or "non-incident").

 

I was messing around...

 

As for the Russian chemical weapons proposal, I wonder if they are just stalling the Americans...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-24038120

 

"...The US, UK and France are to table a UN Security Council resolution but Russia has already indicated opposition. The resolution will call on Syria to publicly declare that it has a chemical weapons programme, place it under international control and dismantle it. UK Prime Minister David Cameron said the motion was designed to ensure that Russia's offer was "not a ruse". "We need a proper timetable, process and consequences if it's not done," he said..."


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#338 gingerjon

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

Since when was MI5 part of the military?
When did bugging equal a "military coup"?


I"m agreeing with you.

It didn't happen.

MI5 has said so.
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#339 walter sobchak

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 05:36 PM

True. So why state that the removal of chemical weapons could potentially result in foreign military intervention, when it is already happening?


Foreign military intervention by the US and France which would be a game changer just like in Libya.

#340 GeordieSaint

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 05:57 PM

Foreign military intervention by the US and France which would be a game changer just like in Libya.

 

Well they aren't planning an intervention and never have been.


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