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Will Rugby League ever be popular in Huddersfield?


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#61 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:21 PM

[quote name="GIANTSTRIDES" post="2780855" timestamp="1378156273"]Huddersfield are truly a disgrace, they have always been a disgrace, they were a disgrace when they propped the league up, they are a disgrace now they have finally won something,. Their ground at Fartown was a disgrace for being old and decrepit, the new ground is a disgrace because it is too big and soulless, They are a complete disgrace for having a wealthy chairman who obviously cares about Rugby league, not to mention having tripled their gates in about 10/12 years.
 Thank heaven It's not the Wire ,Wigan, Leeds ,Hull and Saints fans who have been so generous in their congratulations who think so. There are always going to be the Larry's and the wollo's to poor score on anybody who gets a bit of success, They would be a lot better worrying about Wakeys present situation than about the Giants crowd, But then again Wakey's problems are bound to be down to the Giants in some way.[/
No one us saying any of this and you're overreacting. The OP's question was will rugby league in Huddersfield ever be popular. Using the Giants' crowds as a metric for this (and I assume that was the gist of the question), it would suggest not.

#62 Scubby

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:27 PM

'Average' refers to any measure of the mid-point in a set of data and could refer to either the mean (6368), mode (not applicable to this data) or median (5641). With this particular set of data I would suggest that the median is arguably the most appropriate as the mean of 6368 has only been exceeded 5 times in the 13 home games so is not a true mid point (though it is valid, of course) whereas the median has 6 totals above it and 6 below, so could be thought to represent a more accurate mid point.
Hope this helps you.

 

I'm sure you could give us lots of other examples where RL attendances have been published on the median measure? The Rothman's editions offer us all mean, median and mode averages I'm sure.



#63 Scubby

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:34 PM

[quote name="GIANTSTRIDES" post="2780855" timestamp="1378156273"]Huddersfield are truly a disgrace, they have always been a disgrace, they were a disgrace when they propped the league up, they are a disgrace now they have finally won something,. Their ground at Fartown was a disgrace for being old and decrepit, the new ground is a disgrace because it is too big and soulless, They are a complete disgrace for having a wealthy chairman who obviously cares about Rugby league, not to mention having tripled their gates in about 10/12 years.
 Thank heaven It's not the Wire ,Wigan, Leeds ,Hull and Saints fans who have been so generous in their congratulations who think so. There are always going to be the Larry's and the wollo's to poor score on anybody who gets a bit of success, They would be a lot better worrying about Wakeys present situation than about the Giants crowd, But then again Wakey's problems are bound to be down to the Giants in some way.[/
No one us saying any of this and you're overreacting. The OP's question was will rugby league in Huddersfield ever be popular. Using the Giants' crowds as a metric for this (and I assume that was the gist of the question), it would suggest not.

 

They haven't won anything in 60-odd years. How do we know what Huddersfield will be averaging if they win a couple of back-to-back GFs or a challenge cup? To say it won't ever be popular is ridiculous. We don't know how it will kick on with a period of major success. They have sat at 6-7k for a few years. The whole game has been saying Huddersfield will bottle it every year for the last 5 years. On that basis, it has pretty much gone to script. It will take the town a little while to come to terms with the fact that this could be a golden era for the club.



#64 Johnoco

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:39 PM

But not as good as the huge attendances when they were a top side post WW2. What is your point ? Their attendances are dropping because of a lack of success in comparison to what they were pulling in when they were dominating SL.

Nobody's attendances are what they were post WW2, even for most soccer teams, so what is your point? Let me guess it has something to do with having a dig at Bradford :rolleyes:
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#65 Ant

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:43 PM

So having won nothing in 60 years
Having been the whipping boys of the league for years
Having failed to deliver on the pitch for a decade - especially so in the last couple of years

You say our support has plateaued - maybe that's because our advance up the league stalled, maybe now the fans will come back

But remind me again - what's the prize for having the biggest crowd?

#66 redjonn

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:46 PM

All this focus on attendance at super league  as if its the fundamental area to focus on and when improved it will fix the issues of monies I find slightly amusing.   If we compare with the top league in Rugby Union (Aviva) we are not that much different from their fan base attendance. Yet they are able to sustain a salary cap of between 4.2million and 4.7million depending upon the academy credits.  A huge financial difference.

 

If you consider in the Aviva that in the last current season the top 3 teams average approx. 20,000 the other 9 teams average approx10,000. 

In SL the top 3 averaged 15,000 with the other 11 averaging approx 9000 and that includes the London Bronco drag. (last season gates)

So here we have amongst most of the teams in both top rugby league's a difference of 1000.  

 

Yep, that 1000 will make a difference. But not to sustain a salary cap of 1.7m in SL to 4m in the Aviva RU.

 

Lets not forget that one could argue the geographical spread in England RU Aviva league is not that much different from our M62 corridor, although with Newcastle being promoted that slightly changes.

 

The fundamental difference are the central funding from the RFU, demographics of fan base  plus the Heineken Cup. But the major difference is the RFU funding, which of course comes from the huge international game and everything that comes from that exposure.... and thus desire from sponsorship and commercial aspects.

 

In my opinion we suffer from our historical indifference to representative rugby and will never compete until that changes, if it can ever change.

 

All the tinkering in the world with the league structure will hardly dent the fundamental issue irrespective of any positive increase in the overall product attracting increased attendance.



#67 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:47 PM

They haven't won anything in 60-odd years. How do we know what Huddersfield will be averaging if they win a couple of back-to-back GFs or a challenge cup? To say it won't ever be popular is ridiculous. We don't know how it will kick on with a period of major success. They have sat at 6-7k for a few years. The whole game has been saying Huddersfield will bottle it every year for the last 5 years. On that basis, it has pretty much gone to script. It will take the town a little while to come to terms with the fact that this could be a golden era for the club.


Quite possibly. However, we can't answer a question by speculating on what might happen in the future. All we can do is look at the evidence as it stands. A crude examination of the data that is available now shows us that Huddersfield's attendances have been dropping year on year for the 7 year period between 2007 and 2013, apart from one anomalous data point in 2012. That is fact, not opinion. Whether that changes can only be educated guesswork. Points were made by other posters about factors that might affect attendances. Performances probably are one of them, the stadium appears to be another major factor. Huddersfield have an excellent stadium already and have just won the league, so growth in attendances due to those has already been built in to their current attendance figures. It seems reasonable to assume, therefore, that further significant growth is unlikely and that's my best guess. Consistently competing for trophies may cause this to change but, as I posted earlier, people who start going to games because the team begins winning things, tend to drop away when that's no longer the case.

#68 keighley

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:48 PM

[quote name="GIANTSTRIDES" post="2780855" timestamp="1378156273"]Huddersfield are truly a disgrace, they have always been a disgrace, they were a disgrace when they propped the league up, they are a disgrace now they have finally won something,. Their ground at Fartown was a disgrace for being old and decrepit, the new ground is a disgrace because it is too big and soulless, They are a complete disgrace for having a wealthy chairman who obviously cares about Rugby league, not to mention having tripled their gates in about 10/12 years.
 Thank heaven It's not the Wire ,Wigan, Leeds ,Hull and Saints fans who have been so generous in their congratulations who think so. There are always going to be the Larry's and the wollo's to poor score on anybody who gets a bit of success, They would be a lot better worrying about Wakeys present situation than about the Giants crowd, But then again Wakey's problems are bound to be down to the Giants in some way.[/
No one us saying any of this and you're overreacting. The OP's question was will rugby league in Huddersfield ever be popular. Using the Giants' crowds as a metric for this (and I assume that was the gist of the question), it would suggest not.

 

What are you using as your definition of success. Londons 1800, Salford's 2000, a similar 7,000 at Hull KR, 6000 at Widnes, 6000 at Castleford. Based on those Huddersfield's crowds are decent. They should be better but the failures in the Cup Finals and the collapse last year have made the fans leerie of jumping on the bandwagon. As  several posters including myself have speculated, if they pull off a grand final win this season, it could be the spark that makes The Giants successful again in the home of the game.




 



#69 keighley

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:57 PM

Nobody's attendances are what they were post WW2, even for most soccer teams, so what is your point? Let me guess it has something to do with having a dig at Bradford :rolleyes:
Give it a bleeding rest.

 

No I was referencing a different era in Bradford's history as were you when you referred back to the title winning sides of Peter Fox era who could only pull in 5 to 6000. In fact my example demonstrates the point I was making which is that crowds follow success. Bradford's massive post war crowds fell to a few hundreds by 1962 after years of failure. Bradford's SL era crowds similarly have dropped by almost half following their decline from the giddy heights of Sl superpower to the status of also rans.

 

If it's any consolation to you the same thing has happened at Keighley thanks to a little help from their friends.



#70 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:57 PM

I'm sure you could give us lots of other examples where RL attendances have been published on the median measure? The Rothman's editions offer us all mean, median and mode averages I'm sure.

You asked me what the average was. I answered you. Actually though, you didn't ever refer to the Giants getting an 'average' of 6-7000 this year. You said they 'regularly got 6-7000'. This is incorrect. More accurately they got 8-9000 for 3 SL games, 7-8000 for 2, 6-7000 for none, 5-6000 for 7 and 4-5000 for 1. So, they don't regularly get 6-7000. They haven't got this figure once all season. They in fact regularly get 5-6000 and less regularly get 7000 plus.
PS. I don't have any Rothman's yearbooks. I just looked at Huddersfield's website and worked it out.

#71 Scubby

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:57 PM

Quite possibly. However, we can't answer a question by speculating on what might happen in the future. All we can do is look at the evidence as it stands. A crude examination of the data that is available now shows us that Huddersfield's attendances have been dropping year on year for the 7 year period between 2007 and 2013, apart from one anomalous data point in 2012. That is fact, not opinion. Whether that changes can only be educated guesswork. Points were made by other posters about factors that might affect attendances. Performances probably are one of them, the stadium appears to be another major factor. Huddersfield have an excellent stadium already and have just won the league, so growth in attendances due to those has already been built in to their current attendance figures. It seems reasonable to assume, therefore, that further significant growth is unlikely and that's my best guess. Consistently competing for trophies may cause this to change but, as I posted earlier, people who start going to games because the team begins winning things, tend to drop away when that's no longer the case.

 

You are going round in circles. The thread says will RL ever be popular in Huddersfield? The argument is that in 60-plus years they have won b****r all. They have averaged 6-7k while winning b****r all (and disappointing the fans each year). If the next 3-4 years is a golden era for the club then they may average 8-10k maybe even 10k+. So the answer is it might with some tangible success. That's it.


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#72 Ant

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:59 PM

I was going to ask "what is the acceptable crowd level"

Do the giants think its good enough? No
Have they worked hard to build? Yes
Has it been thwarted? Yes

Fwiw 2009 was a massive, massive missed oppertunity for the Giants - a few comparatve seasons and 3rd in the league then - if they had actually won that cup final I suspect very much it would be the catalyst to have lifted us like it lifted Warrington

Alas it wasn't to be and in the following seasons the wheels falling off became the norm

This season is a stepping stone, we've put 60 years of ghosts to rest, and I think pulled back in the missing fans from last season

Compare to 2/3 of the league we are on a par, to stick to the top table we need better crowds - wining the LLS is a companant in that

Coming in for grief from the bitter and jealous is another part I guess

#73 keighley

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:03 PM

All this focus on attendance at super league  as if its the fundamental area to focus on and when improved it will fix the issues of monies I find slightly amusing.   If we compare with the top league in Rugby Union (Aviva) we are not that much different from their fan base attendance. Yet they are able to sustain a salary cap of between 4.2million and 4.7million depending upon the academy credits.  A huge financial difference.

 

If you consider in the Aviva that in the last current season the top 3 teams average approx. 20,000 the other 9 teams average approx10,000. 

In SL the top 3 averaged 15,000 with the other 11 averaging approx 9000 and that includes the London Bronco drag. (last season gates)

So here we have amongst most of the teams in both top rugby league's a difference of 1000.  

 

Yep, that 1000 will make a difference. But not to sustain a salary cap of 1.7m in SL to 4m in the Aviva RU.

 

Lets not forget that one could argue the geographical spread in England RU Aviva league is not that much different from our M62 corridor, although with Newcastle being promoted that slightly changes.

 

The fundamental difference are the central funding from the RFU, demographics of fan base  plus the Heineken Cup. But the major difference is the RFU funding, which of course comes from the huge international game and everything that comes from that exposure.... and thus desire from sponsorship and commercial aspects.

 

In my opinion we suffer from our historical indifference to representative rugby and will never compete until that changes, if it can ever change.

 

All the tinkering in the world with the league structure will hardly dent the fundamental issue irrespective of any positive increase in the overall product attracting increased attendance.

 

You definitely have a point and the importance if the World Cup being a massive success is a starting point to changing that indifference and magnifying the importance of our international game.



#74 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:07 PM

What are you using as your definition of success. Londons 1800, Salford's 2000, a similar 7,000 at Hull KR, 6000 at Widnes, 6000 at Castleford. Based on those Huddersfield's crowds are decent. They should be better but the failures in the Cup Finals and the collapse last year have made the fans leerie of jumping on the bandwagon. As several posters including myself have speculated, if they pull off a grand final win this season, it could be the spark that makes The Giants successful again in the home of the game.

I have not mentioned 'success' per se. That's not the point of the OP. It was a question about whether Huddersfield's attendances will significantly rise. We don't know. They might. As might Salford's, London's etc. if they won it.
You appear to be suggesting that disappointing defeat in a cup final might have turned spectators away? Are you serious? Only one team wins any trophy. Are the rest all losers then? So, following the same logic, if Huddersfield beat Leeds twice (probably what they'll have to do) and get to the GF this year, then lose, then we might expect their attendance to fall below this year's median of 5687? I wish my team, York, could experience similar disappointing defeats!

Edited by gavin7094, 02 September 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#75 Scubby

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

You asked me what the average was. I answered you. Actually though, you didn't ever refer to the Giants getting an 'average' of 6-7000 this year. You said they 'regularly got 6-7000'. This is incorrect. More accurately they got 8-9000 for 3 SL games, 7-8000 for 2, 6-7000 for none, 5-6000 for 7 and 4-5000 for 1. So, they don't regularly get 6-7000. They haven't got this figure once all season. They in fact regularly get 5-6000 and less regularly get 7000 plus.
PS. I don't have any Rothman's yearbooks. I just looked at Huddersfield's website and worked it out.

 

Okay so you are happy to quote another poster highlighting an average of around 7k for the last six years. I would at least have thought you would have tried to ascertain the median on these figures before quoting them to make your point  :rolleyes:

 

I would be pretty sure that they will have regularly got crowds of 6-7k over those last few years. Where did I say regularly 6-7k 'this year'? See a quote from my post below. 

 

Huddersfield were getting 2-3,000 in 2003, now they are getting around 6-7,000 regularly and got 8,700 yesterday



#76 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:16 PM

You are going round in circles. The thread says will RL ever be popular in Huddersfield? The argument is that in 60-plus years they have won b****r all. They have averaged 6-7k while winning b****r all (and disappointing the fans each year). If the next 3-4 years is a golden era for the club then they may average 8-10k maybe even 10k+. So the answer is it might with some tangible success. That's it.


You are still repeating your speculation. 'If...', 'may...', might...'. I can do that too. If there isn't a golden era, they may not get even 6000. There. And the evidence supports my speculations more than yours. After all, remember that they have played consistently good rugby this season and crowds are the lowest for a decade and the trend is continuing downwards. What are you basing this on?
And you too are using the 'disappointing the fans' argument. If fans are dissuaded by losing cup finals then that suggests they won't stick around for long. If it's disappointment you want, come and watch York with me.
And I'm going in circles?

#77 keighley

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:16 PM

I have not mentioned 'success' per se. That's not the point of the OP. It was a question about whether Huddersfield's attendances will significantly rise. We don't know. They might. As might Salford's, London's etc. if they won it.
You appear to be suggesting that disappointing defeat in a cup final might have turned spectators away? Are you serious? Only one team wins any trophy. Are the rest all losers then? So, following the same logic, if Huddersfield beat Leeds twice (probably what they'll have to do) and get to the GF this year, then lose, then we might expect their attendance to fall below this year's median of 5687? I wish my team, York, could experience similar disappointmenting defeats!

 

I would hazard a guess that if York are a massive success next season in CC1 and dominate and win that competition, the crowds will be above those of this miserable relegation season. Crowds follow success. 



#78 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

Okay so you are happy to quote another poster highlighting an average of around 7k for the last six years. I would at least have thought you would have tried to ascertain the median on these figures before quoting them to make your point  :rolleyes:
 
I would be pretty sure that they will have regularly got crowds of 6-7k over those last few years. Where did I say regularly 6-7k 'this year'? See a quote from my post below. 
 
Huddersfield were getting 2-3,000 in 2003, now they are getting around 6-7,000 regularly and got 8,700 yesterday

What?? 'Now' is surely in this current year, if I'm not mistaken?

#79 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:25 PM

I would hazard a guess that if York are a massive success next season in CC1 and dominate and win that competition, the crowds will be above those of this miserable relegation season. Crowds follow success.

Probably. But the point is that Huddersfield have had 'massive success' already, at least comparatively, with 2 cup finals and a league title. How much more success do they want before these mystery thousands start turning up? Any potential Huddersfield spectator that is waiting on the sidelines for more than that before committing is going to be very hard to please and, I would suggest, will not keep attending if they revert to being a struggling lower mid table team.

#80 gavin7094

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:28 PM

I would hazard a guess that if York are a massive success next season in CC1 and dominate and win that competition, the crowds will be above those of this miserable relegation season. Crowds follow success.

And were York ever to get back into the top division, I doubt their crowds would build up any more than Huddersfield's quite honestly.




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