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Another cyclist-killer escapes proper punishment


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#1 JohnM

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:20 AM

FFS! 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...dshire-23944993



#2 gingerjon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:28 AM

Oh, are we doing this here?  I've just added it the other thread.

 

But to add something here - it's still light in Oxford in May at the time of the crash.  So the comment about lights and reflectors is needless victim-blaming from the chomping driver.

 

Still, he probably feels really really sad and cyclists need training to avoid drivers who really need a sandwich whilst piloting a vehicle.


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#3 JohnM

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:29 AM

Apologies, you have fallen into my " no lights " trap that was intended for others.



#4 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:40 AM

Oh, are we doing this here? I've just added it the other thread.

But to add something here - it's still light in Oxford in May at the time of the crash. So the comment about lights and reflectors is needless victim-blaming from the chomping driver.

Still, he probably feels really really sad and cyclists need training to avoid drivers who really need a sandwich whilst piloting a vehicle.

Yes when I read this I checked the sunset times and in The NW of England the sun sets at 21:00 in May so it would still be light

So to anyone on the other thread who would question a draconian custodial sentence for a 'momentary lapse in concentration' to justify their stance again.

Edited by Bostik Bailey, 03 September 2013 - 11:41 AM.


#5 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:47 AM

There are cyclists who do court danger during the night. When travelling to work on a dark, winter's night and with the street lights switched off to save energy, I came across cyclists wearing dark clothing and with no bike lights. Also, one particular road was shaded in trees, making it even more dangerous for the cyclist. I must admit to seeing a cyclist at the last minute and frightening thinking what might have been.  I suppose one could blame the council for cost-cutting if an accident happened. 

 

This debate could go on and on, but at the end of the day both cyclists and motorists do cause accidents. I do recall a motorists in North Wales killing several cyclists but never heard of the outcome! 

 

As for sentencing, they can be open to criticism and not always what one would expect. 



#6 gingerjon

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:48 AM

 I do recall a motorists in North Wales killing several cyclists but never heard of the outcome! 

 

He got a fine for having a bald tyre.


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#7 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:54 AM

He got a fine for having a bald tyre.

 

Having just looked it up, the road was covered in ice, so making it even more dangerous with a bald tyre. Out of interest, what do you think the sentence should have been? 



#8 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:04 PM

There are cyclists who do court danger during the night. When travelling to work on a dark, winter's night and with the street lights switched off to save energy, I came across cyclists wearing dark clothing and with no bike lights. Also, one particular road was shaded in trees, making it even more dangerous for the cyclist. I must admit to seeing a cyclist at the last minute and frightening thinking what might have been.  I suppose one could blame the council for cost-cutting if an accident happened. 
 
This debate could go on and on, but at the end of the day both cyclists and motorists do cause accidents. I do recall a motorists in North Wales killing several cyclists but never heard of the outcome! 
 
As for sentencing, they can be open to criticism and not always what one would expect.


So all pedestrians should carry lights and wear bright clothing at night, just in case they want to cross the road?

I agree cycling at night without lights is foolhardy, but does that give anyone the right to run them down?

I really now cannot see the problem motorists have, if they concentrate more then the roads will be a lot safer. But no far better to blame the victims and suggest that they need more training or they can expect the death penalty.

#9 Futtocks

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:19 PM

Will there ever be thread on this subject where everyone can come to the agreement that neither cyclists or motorists are 100% innocent?

 

I doubt it; the hyperbolic language usually carries the day.


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#10 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:31 PM

So all pedestrians should carry lights and wear bright clothing at night, just in case they want to cross the road?

I agree cycling at night without lights is foolhardy, but does that give anyone the right to run them down?

I really now cannot see the problem motorists have, if they concentrate more then the roads will be a lot safer. But no far better to blame the victims and suggest that they need more training or they can expect the death penalty.

 

So what would you say if motorists travelled at night without lights? Foolhardy! Imagine a cyclist travelling along a narrow, winding country lane without lights, I'd say it's more than foolhardy and courting trouble. 

 

As for pedestrians, some do wear those yellow jackets when walking to work in an unlit, out of town road. 

 

Also, I have never said that it's right to run someone down, the fact is accidents do happen, no matter who is at fault. 



#11 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:32 PM

Will there ever be thread on this subject where everyone can come to the agreement that neither cyclists or motorists are 100% innocent?

 

I doubt it; the hyperbolic language usually carries the day.

 

Like I've said on another thread.



#12 JohnM

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:44 PM

So what would you say if motorists travelled at night without lights? Foolhardy! Imagine a cyclist travelling along a narrow, winding country lane without lights, I'd say it's more than foolhardy and courting trouble. 

 

As for pedestrians, some do wear those yellow jackets when walking to work in an unlit, out of town road. 

 

Also, I have never said that it's right to run someone down, the fact is accidents do happen, no matter who is at fault. 

 

Ray, in this particular case, it wasn't dark.   In legal terms, is lighting up time still in force? see http://en.wikipedia....ighting-up_time

 

I realise we are concerned here not with the legalities but with what makes sense to reduce vulnerability and risk. However, I believe that it is incumbent on all of us to obey the law as that is ( supposed to be) the foundation on which our society is built.

 

Sure, some cyclists break the law  sometimes in quite foolhardy circumstances and that is wrong. It is also sensible for cyclists to do their reasonable best to reduce their exposure. 

 

 

However, until the mass of motorists start to show much more respect for the law, and the police and CPS show some determination to enforce and prosecute, then cycle killing will continue to increase



#13 Ackroman

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:45 PM

A pedestrian, cyclist, man with 10 sheep etc has a right to use the highway. It just happens that the motor vehicle is in such a majority that many drivers think have a right of way over others. In all circumstances the law will apply rather than mob rule, and equally common sense has no legal position. A car driver therefore must be prepared for the unexpected and eating a sandwhich hardly qualifies as prepared.

......and unless I am wrong it's common sense to wear bright clothing but it is not a legal requirement.

#14 Ackroman

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:46 PM

However, until the mass of motorists start to show much more respect for the law, and the police and CPS show some determination to enforce and prosecute, then cycle killing will continue to increase


I think I could have just +1'd this

#15 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:04 PM

Ray, in this particular case, it wasn't dark.   In legal terms, is lighting up time still in force? see http://en.wikipedia....ighting-up_time

 

I realise we are concerned here not with the legalities but with what makes sense to reduce vulnerability and risk. However, I believe that it is incumbent on all of us to obey the law as that is ( supposed to be) the foundation on which our society is built.

 

Sure, some cyclists break the law  sometimes in quite foolhardy circumstances and that is wrong. It is also sensible for cyclists to do their reasonable best to reduce their exposure. 

 

 

However, until the mass of motorists start to show much more respect for the law, and the police and CPS show some determination to enforce and prosecute, then cycle killing will continue to increase

 

John, I did understand, I was just pointing out what I had experienced. I have been hit three times from behind by cyclists when walking on the pavement. I once witnessed a near-miss after a cyclist when through lights on red. Other idiots zig zag and cycle on one wheel when out on the road. 

 

Cycles nowadays have many safety features, as well as cyclists wearing flashing lights on their jackets. Nothing is guaranteed, but it makes sense to take precautions. A cyclist is far more exposed to danger than a pedestrian crossing the road. That said, I have seen pedestrians crossing the road near to a crossing with control lights. 


Edited by Saint Billinge, 03 September 2013 - 01:08 PM.


#16 Griff

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:11 PM

So all pedestrians should carry lights and wear bright clothing at night, just in case they want to cross the road?
 

 

Highway Code recommends exactly that.


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#17 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:18 PM

This is interesting. Denmark has increased fines for cycling through a red light, riding on the pavement, riding no-handed, cycling without lights or using a mobile phone when cycling. I have seen a lorry driver on the motorway motion with both hands whilst talking on his hands-free mobile phone.  :sleep:



#18 Larry the Leit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:45 PM

Careless not dangerous eh?
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#19 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:05 PM

Careless not dangerous eh?

 

Whatever you think! Goodbye. 



#20 Larry the Leit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:20 PM

I'm on tour with my band, this week in The Netherlands. Whilst acknowledging that there are far more cyclist about, the general care and attention of the road users in respect of them is noticeably different to the UK.

People also appear to respect the speed limit, and the motorways are a joy to drive on compared to the aggressive testosterone fuelled battlegrounds of the network in the UK.
The Unicorn is not a Goose,




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