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Does London need a top-class Super League club? (Merged Threads)


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#41 gingerjon

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:29 PM

They are paying to the cap.


Don't come here with facts.
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#42 RugbyLeagueGeek

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:29 PM

What's the point? They clearly can't afford to pay the full cap (or anywhere near it) anyway. Double their cap and they won't be competitive anyway.

These are the recruitment constraints that you were unclear about. A 3-bedroom house in London costs almost as much as a full salary cap.

 

For a London team to ever be successful in SL they would need a massive dispensation from the cap. The fact that they've never had this means that they've effectively been competing with one hand tied behind their back the past few years. The last time they were successful was back in the 1990s when they were stacked with antipodeans (which people moaned about) as the exchange rate was far more favourable, and the cost of housing was about 1/3 of what it is now. It's a bloody miracle they haven't folded years ago.


Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek, 07 September 2013 - 08:30 PM.


#43 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:02 PM

These are the recruitment constraints that you were unclear about. A 3-bedroom house in London costs almost as much as a full salary cap.
 
For a London team to ever be successful in SL they would need a massive dispensation from the cap. The fact that they've never had this means that they've effectively been competing with one hand tied behind their back the past few years. The last time they were successful was back in the 1990s when they were stacked with antipodeans (which people moaned about) as the exchange rate was far more favourable, and the cost of housing was about 1/3 of what it is now. It's a bloody miracle they haven't folded years ago.


No, in their entire existence, they've only had one season that they claimed to be spending the full cap (this one).

Therefore having a higher salary cap would not have enabled them to be more competitive. If they did not have the money to spend the full cap then they could not have spent the "London cap" either.

#44 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:04 PM

They are paying to the cap.


This season. Clearly they won't be next year. Whether you double or even treble the cap, it won't make any difference to how much they will be able to spend.

#45 THE RED ROOSTER

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:09 PM

I tend to look at this forum often but have never posted before but thought i would to allay some fears on this matter.

 

One of my friends at RFL informed me that there will be a new owner of Broncos next year, taking over from David Hughes. The club will still be around, at the Hive, whether that remains in Super League or Championship remains to be decided.

 

The new owner is looking to run it more sustainably, which is the way any business should be run, however that will also mean that gone are the days of spending mega bucks on Aussies. I can only see it as a positive to rebuild with a London core, however the proof will be in the pudding as to how successful it is, and more importantly how successful the new owner can run the club, as clearly the structure/setup is the most important aspect, which has been severley lacking in Hughes' era.

 

 

There's no point merging clubs if they can be run sustainably as separate entities, which is what the move to Barnet should do for Broncos. There's no point having the Bronco's at New River, as there would be nothing to distinguish them from Skolars.

 

Moving to Barnet, which is near enough to New River, as separate entities, would help the sharing of resources, development staff etc and you could then look to build a rugby league hub in North London from Broncos, Skolars and Hemel

 

Time for your debriefing Agent Double D7

 

The fact that David Hughes no longer bankrolls the club is self evident but as to the identity of this new owner please provide details on the following

 

If Anthony Kleanthous owner of Barnet FC was to take over London Broncos what would be in it for him. He is not known as a Rugby League fan and the only reason for a non-fan to take over would be for the club to act as a revenue stream and to be a revenue stream you have to be a Super League Club.

 

As for the Hive please answer the following:

  • Why has new of London Broncos arrival not appeared in any Barnet FC forum?
  • Why has neither of the local papers - that are pretty well informed on matters at the Hive - The Harrow Times and Harrow Observer mentioned the London Broncos?
  • Considering David Hughes could never get the club renamed Charlton Athletic FC and Mark Evans took flack from Quins fans over the proposed merger. Why would Anthony Kleanthous be any more likely not to face opposition to the perceived use of money taken from the Football Club to prop up an ailing RL outfit. After all its why Fulham FC divested itself of Fulham RL from Craven Cottage back in the 1980's.
  • How do you think the active residents group would react to Professional Rugby League joining non-league football at the Hive?
  • How do you think the Labour Councillors who have assidously backed the residents group in their successful opposition to Barnet FC's planning permission would react?
  • And what makes you believe it is within the terms of his lease that would allow Anthony Kleanthous to sub-let anyway for that matter?

On the sustainability model ,the Broncos brand is now so tarnished amongst its own fanbase what makes you think they would have a paying audience of four figures ?

 

Please explain how a side shorn of all overseas players and comprised mainly of reserve grade and youth players can seriously be considered as a Super League Club for 2014?.

 

If you are open to the prospect of sharing resources  with London Skolars then surely the logic of your position dictates that the Skolars should take over any remaining assets and instead of being frittered away and duplicated then the strength of RL in the capital should be concentrated in the one club with a view to getting into the 2015 - Top 24 and pushing on from there.

 

Finally Double D7  can you confirm you have proof that Wood and Rimmer as double agents and how many more are there at Red Hall ?

  

Ian Ramsdale reporting on Twitter that the RFL likely to take on responsibility for running a Rugby League academy in London in 2014. About chuffing time. Really exploiting the the playing potential in the south is in all our interests.

Obviously we all know southerners are softies, but out of 8m people we ought to be able to find a few tough enough to play the game at the top level, which can only help to increase the playing pool available to the national coach.

 

There are four Professional Rugby Union clubs that would love the RFL to set up an academy in London.  Has it not occured to anyone to think that given the choice of relocation to the north or the chance of a professional career in the South promising youngsters will opt for Union almost everytime.

 

As for soft southerners, I will be a quite a few World Cup Games and the Italy friendly travelling up to the fringe of the M62 which appears to be a bit more that soft Northern lads and lasses appear to be able to do . ;)

 

 .


I am an oil trader and successful at that but, but marketing, finance, business management, human resources etc are not my strengths


 

 

David Hughes to Ian Lenagan Page 134 - A Pastel Revolution - Fletcher and Gordas - 2006

 

Being an outsider, it is easiest to see what is wrong with the sport. It's a fantastic sport that has been undersold and under-marketed  because people who run it probably want to keep it the way it is

 

 

Dr Marwan Koukash to Joanthan Lieu. Sunday Telegraph 9th March 2014

 

 


#46 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:12 PM

Don't come here with facts.


Do you dispute the fact that they can't afford to pay the full cap? I'd have thought the fact that they are letting almost all their first team players go along with the back office staff would be ample evidence.

#47 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:18 PM

 
As for soft southerners, I will be a quite a few World Cup Games and the Italy friendly travelling up to the fringe of the M62 which appears to be a bit more that soft Northern lads and lasses appear to be able to do . ;)
 
 .

That's because they are tight, not soft!

#48 RugbyLeagueGeek

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:42 AM

No, in their entire existence, they've only had one season that they claimed to be spending the full cap (this one).

Therefore having a higher salary cap would not have enabled them to be more competitive. If they did not have the money to spend the full cap then they could not have spent the "London cap" either.

For arguments sake, if they had a sugar daddy who could bankroll a full spend of a doubled salary cap, would you be in favour of an increased cap for London?


Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek, 08 September 2013 - 07:42 AM.


#49 The Future is League

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:03 AM

The Broncos are preparing or life in the Championship and will never return to Super League. They will just become a feeder club for Super League clubs.



#50 Chronicler of Chiswick

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:45 AM

That's because they are tight, not soft!

Curses, Moriarty - we've been outed!!



#51 Pottsy

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:20 AM

Listened to IM2 on Ian Ramsdale's podcast and he was talking absolute sense about the need for consolidation and centralisation of resources in the capital.

All this talk of semi pro/pro clubs in every corner of town is lovely but in real terms the game needs to be a bit more pragmatic and, as Hector says, a bricks & mortar legacy is essential.

#52 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:44 AM

For arguments sake, if they had a sugar daddy who could bankroll a full spend of a doubled salary cap, would you be in favour of an increased cap for London?


I'd be in favour of an increased salary cap that was calculated from the average London weighting used in different industries.

#53 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:46 AM

Listened to IM2 on Ian Ramsdale's podcast and he was talking absolute sense about the need for consolidation and centralisation of resources in the capital.

All this talk of semi pro/pro clubs in every corner of town is lovely but in real terms the game needs to be a bit more pragmatic and, as Hector says, a bricks & mortar legacy is essential.


It would be fantatic if Skolars owned their own ground and it makes sense for the RFL to base some of their operations there but I don't know how either Broncos or Skolars can expand their fanbases if they are located at the same ground.

#54 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:06 AM

It would be fantatic if Skolars owned their own ground and it makes sense for the RFL to base some of their operations there but I don't know how either Broncos or Skolars can expand their fanbases if they are located at the same ground.

That's my take on it too. Whilst it's nice to think they could both just happily play at the same ground, the real issue would be the competition for fans. How can two already small RL clubs grow if they are competing with each other for the same fans? It just doubles the task.
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#55 DoubleD

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:39 AM

Exactly, Northern Sol/Wellsy, you'd just end up with a situation where the team merges.

 

If they can be run sustainably as separate entities then it makes sense. It could even create rivalries & derbies as per Crusaders/Scorpians.

 

Red Rooster - All will be revealed in due course. Steve O'Connor, Adam Pearson and the good Doctor weren't avid rugby league fans when they took over their respective clubs, were they? You may think the Broncos are ready for roosting but fortunately not everyone has your doom and gloom outlook in life. If they take a step back, regroup, get the right structure in place and build links with the local communities of Edgware and Barnet, then we may well see the Broncos bucking again


Edited by DoubleD7, 08 September 2013 - 11:03 AM.


#56 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:47 AM

That's my take on it too. Whilst it's nice to think they could both just happily play at the same ground, the real issue would be the competition for fans. How can two already small RL clubs grow if they are competing with each other for the same fans? It just doubles the task.


Is the solution for the top club in London to always play out of the same stadium? We're not going to get an Arsenl, Spurs, Chelsea etc etc type scenario in London, so is the idea of the Broncos beng a part of their community in the same way those soccer clubs or Wigan, Wire or Leeds are realistic?

I wonder if the model would not be better if there were a number of semi-pro clubs around the capital, embedded in their community (eg Skolars, Hemel, Medway) and then to have the top club (currently the Broncos) as a club that plays its matches around the capital. There are loads of suitable venues already available.

Could the top London club not play at various stadia around the capital, with the venue promoting the match? In other aspects of entertainment it is what happens. Musicians, comedians etc take their show to different venues, so is their a reason why this could not happen to top level RL in the capital.

To shift the balance from the Broncos hiring a venue to play, to one where the venue pays the Bronocs to bring their match to their stadium. It is the sort of thing that has been trialled with host cities bidding for the World Cup.

Clearly at the moment I couldn't see someone like Watford offering the Broncos much to host Broncos v Wakey in front of 2,000 people, but wonder if it might be a better long-term model, rather than the idea of the Broncos having their own long-term ground in London.

#57 Pottsy

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:22 AM

That's my take on it too. Whilst it's nice to think they could both just happily play at the same ground, the real issue would be the competition for fans. How can two already small RL clubs grow if they are competing with each other for the same fans? It just doubles the task.

Hector McNeil is smart enough to know that the support for London RL is not divided on district lines anyway. London RL relies on a core of diehards who are prepared to travel round the capital for their fix; many already alternate their support between Broncos, Skolars and perhaps other clubs already.

The reason Hector and others are advocating a central base is that having two clubs playing on alternate weekends will make the prospect of tripartite ownership much more viable than having one underfunded club trying to go it alone.

The fact is, Skolars and Broncos don't compete for fans and the truth is, however nice the notion may be, we're probably never going to have a Chelsea/Arsenal or Wasps/Saracens scenario, let alone a cluster of Championship level clubs around the capital.

The Skolars' steady growth is down to hard work and pragmatism and the pragmatic option is to have a London club playing at each tier of the current 'pyramid' and for the sport to establish a bricks and mortar presence in the capital.

Sticking pins on the map from Deptford to Chiswick is fun but, in the real world, consolidation makes more sense.

Edited by Pottsy, 08 September 2013 - 11:24 AM.


#58 jpmc

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:42 AM

The more london or south east clubs the better for me.

Hopefully they will all work together to sell RL to the masses 'to the point were they have 10k or more paying spectators between them.

Maybe then they can kick on as individual clubs, or they could start looking at merging to form stronger clubs that can compete at a higher level

#59 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:56 AM

The ideal scenario would be for the RFL to buy both the New River AND invest in another ground for the Broncos somewhere else.

Broncos moving in at the New River would just see the Skolars get assimilated and that would be bad IMO given the Broncos awful track record.

I would prefer the Skolars and their brand be the recipient of any potential base for the RFL. With a bit of luck we'll see the Skolars in the second division within a couple of years and maybe we'll have a proper London derby with tge Broncos and Skolars fighting for promotion to SL. Maybe thats the sort of scenario that will get folk out of the woodwork in London. There are a lot of Northern exiles in London who could help to form bedrock support for both clubs

#60 Pottsy

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 12:02 PM

The Northern Exiles are barely able to support one club though, let alone two chasing the same fans.

If there was a fullscale coming together of the London clubs, I'd expect it to be Skolars led anyway.




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