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#101 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:31 AM

Correct, although the so called elite clubs have never had as much money thrown at them and crowds supposedly have never been as good. Something is not quite right.


The top clubs have also never had costs like they do now! People seem to forget that since the start of the SL era, we've had 12/14 clubs who have tried to operate on a full time basis. You can argue whether that is a good idea or not, and how well or otherwise various clubs have adapted to that, but the figures do seem to show that at the time when we have more proper full time clubs than ever, we're also getting the biggest aggregate crowds in 35 odd years.

I expect that if you broke the figures down for SL, you'd also see a link between how well a club is run and average crowds.

#102 The Parksider

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:32 AM

If you are correct and the clubs now have a far superior take per head then can you tell me what is better??? 3.3 million spectators paying that take per head or 1.7 million spectators????
 
It is widely acknowledge the SL clubs get just shy of £1mill per season from the £90 mill contract, at an average of £20.00 per head (admittance only) this works out at 50,000 spectators they are been paid for...or 700,000 over the fourteen clubs...
 
How much is lost to the game overall?
 
Perhaps nothing in the "summer" era..
 
Would indeed the modern summer era passholder turn up for extra cup games or tour matches anymore..??? Probably not...
 
Whilst the average crowds of Leeds, Wigan, Warrington and Saints are to be applauded and ARE good for the game it does gloss over and take attention away from what lies beneath and wether it is admitted or not the game would not last much beyond a generation without the bottom 70% of the pyramid..

 

I appreciate your maths here, it's an interesting argument, and seemingly goes way beyond the stats we have to hand. Totting up stats is a long process and of course you set yourself up to be knocked down whether fairly or not. Criticising Padge's stats for being untitled was beyond the pale IMHO.

 

We have had some excellent attendances at knock down prices and freebie tickets so are attendances the measure of success for the professional game? Or should it be how much money the game takes whether in 1990 or the inflation adjusted equivalent in 2013. Does a £90,000,000 SKY contract mean we take far more today than we did in 1990? Does the fact we have a bigger wages bill mean we may take more but we pay out more??

 

The game is not profitable, make a profit and it will get spent, so maybe the games turnover is the measure of the financial strength of the sport???

 

I'm still of the opinion that the make up of the game pre 1995 when the fans were spread more evenly across the clubs, is something we can't get back to, and had to leave behind. The SKY contract, stifles clubs outside SL, and as you say it may also not compensate us for the games losses (if indeed there are any). But can we abandon that contract and go semi pro again??? Was it wrong to take the SKY money??.

 

Is that the argument rather than a stats bash? Because most people took the view that without the SKY contract the game would have declined more heavily than it may have already done? - so does it matter what the attendance figures show?



#103 The Parksider

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:34 AM

The top clubs have also never had costs like they do now! People seem to forget that since the start of the SL era,

 

Yes indeed, you got there first. maybe it's not about attendances.......



#104 Scubby

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:13 AM

Correct, although the so called elite clubs have never had as much money thrown at them and crowds supposedly have never been as good. Something is not quite right.

 

To be fair, you can't compare getting TV money and having to pay a full time roster of 25 plus full time employees (players), with a full time admin, marketing, merchandise, development, medical, academies etc. with players playing part-time for cash in hand on a win-lose basis and 2-3 people in the office managing admin on non-matchdays.

 

Different eras, different requirements.


Edited by Scubby, 22 September 2013 - 10:13 AM.


#105 JohnM

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:32 AM

Correct, although the so called elite clubs have never had as much money thrown at them and crowds supposedly have never been as good. Something is not quite right.

 

Thrown at them? Really?  Don't you think they have had to work for every penny?  Crowds are not "supposed to be booming". They are, though, showing a long term increase.  However, in this age of television, views are also an important part of the games revenue stream.  


Edited by JohnM, 22 September 2013 - 10:33 AM.


#106 Marty Funkhouser

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:42 AM

Why have you chosen that year, you have just found a random figure from some time in the past and you only want to compare it to SL.

 

That smacks of an agenda, figures after that time until the early eighties plummeted massively, that decline had nothing to do with SL.

 

What has SL got to do with a decline when it didn't exist. 

 

Attendance figures are increasing. from a low in the seventies. 

 

Would you care to post the figures for lets say 1968 until 1978?

 

Whilst your at it can you give me breakdown of that figure, does it include any cup finals or internationals?

I am in agreement with some of what you say above but the fact remains that in terms of total paying spectators, which is of massive importance to any professional sport, we are nowhere near a high point in the graph...despite how we can show we have some very good average figures amongst a handful of clubs. I am more interested in the debate as to which is the better model for the game or indeed if any other models exist as to whom is right or wrong .

 

I only have a few odd bits of literature but in the interest of balance i have pulled a completely random old Rothmans which gives the figures for 1981-82, acknowledged as not a particularly high point and indeed at the point where you point out quite correctly that figures had plummeted.

 

The official total paying audience (the ways of the world then would almost certainly mean the real figure is more) for that year at all pro RL matches was in excess of 2.4 million....We had indeed , as you correctly intimate, lost 900,000 from the above example (the loss of the Floodlit Trophy and extended play offs a small but significant contribution) yet this still stands, in a perceived "low" point in the RL history ,as in excess of the 2012 RL season....and this season...,combine this with the fact there were six fully sponsored tournaments all with prize money and with over a dozen million plus TV audiences and i would say it is a question worth asking whether indeed we are on the right track or a deeper re-think or debate then re-jigging the league again is perhaps needed.

 

Whilst the SL era is fantastic for perhaps six of the now 37 professional clubs and the supporters of same who are driving the "increased" crowds you talk about , for some others it is a disaster...



#107 The Parksider

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:11 AM

I would say it is a question worth asking whether indeed we are on the right track or a deeper re-think or debate then re-jigging the league again is perhaps needed. Whilst the SL era is fantastic for perhaps six of the now 37 professional clubs and the supporters of same who are driving the "increased" crowds you talk about , for some others it is a disaster...

 

I've no doubt that for any club shut out of SL it's been a disaster.

 

But would we be on the right track trying to keep 37 professional clubs going forward? Even if SKY money could be shared 37 ways (which it can't) it doesn't follow the game as a whole would progress.

 

Lyndsay knew full well trying to keep the old set up going wasn't possible on the low resources the game has. He created Superlegue to get the SKY money and arranged for elite clubs to provide a professional game for fans of lowly struggling clubs to go watch. It didn't happen by fans instantly transferring alliegances, but it remains the case that years on the games fans (who come and go) have migrated to Superleague, and the figures show that in 2012 every one of the M62 Superleague clubs (not six) had higher crowds than they had before Superleague began. Superleague provides more of it's fans with a higher standard of Rugby League to watch.

 

What is the problem?



#108 deluded pom?

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:16 PM

Criticising Padge's stats for being untitled was beyond the pale IMHO.
 

If I posted unreferenced material to back up my point I'd expect to be pulled up about it. I wish I had a £ for every time I've seen someone asked to provide a link or a reference to something they'd posted to prove their point. Padge is usually one of the main protagonists.

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#109 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:34 PM

You mean they don't call you smug mug?

 

 

It could be a graph showing the size of Padge's ego over the years. Mods may class this as abusive but may I first point out that Padge accused someone of being drunk.

Crowds are supposed to be booming yet quite a few clubs are or have been in serious financial trouble, things just don't add up.

I like reading Padge he's very entertaining


but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

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#110 deluded pom?

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:36 PM

I like reading Padge he's very entertaining

He amuses me too.

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#111 gingerjon

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:39 PM

 

 

Whilst the SL era is fantastic for perhaps six of the now 37 professional clubs and the supporters of same who are driving the "increased" crowds you talk about , for some others it is a disaster...

 

For which clubs has it been a disaster?


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#112 Ant

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:04 PM

And splitting the leagues up in the 70s was a disaster for other clubs.

#113 Pete M

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:37 PM

In 2007 Leeds played Saints in the play-offs at Headingley, attendance 12,064., so last nights was around 150 up on that.

That was at Knowsley Road.



#114 Pete M

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 03:13 PM

2013 SL attendances during the regular season are 10.4% down on last year.

 

SL Play-off attendances have been in decline for a while, and particularly so since the introduction of the Top 8 play-off format.

 

SL Play-Off Attendances (not including Grand Finals)

Top 8 Format (2009 to 2013) - Total attendance 363,479 from 38 play-off fixtures - Average: 9,565

Top 6 Format (2002 to 2008) - Total attendance 468,499 from 35 play-off fixtures - Average: 13,386

Top 5 Format (1998 to 2001) - Total attendance 248,342 from 20 play-off fixtures - Average: 12,417

 

SL Play-Off Attendances - comparison between same play-off fixtures under different formats.
Leeds V Wigan
2010: 13,693 (Top 8 format)
2008: 13,112 (Top 6 format)
2007: 16,112 (Top 6 format)
2004: 20,119 (Top 6 format)
2003: 17,264 (Top 6 format)
 
Wigan V Leeds
2012: 8,235 (Top 8 format)
2010: 9,987 (Top 8 format)
2002: 13,157 (Top 6 format)
1998: 12,941 (Top 5 format)
 
Leeds V Hull
2012: 9,075 (Top 8 format)
2002: 12,123 (Top 6 format)
 
Wigan V Castleford
2009: 8,689 (Top 8 format)
1999: 13,374 (Top 5 format)
 
Wigan V St Helens
2011: 12,893 (Top 8 format)
2004: 20,052 (Top 6 format)
2003: 21,790 (Top 6 format)
2001: 19,260 (Top 5 format)
 
St Helens V Wigan
2011: 9,421 (Top 8 format)
2009: 13,087 (Top 8 format)
2002: 15,100 (Top 6 format)
 
Warrington V Hull
2012: 7,323 (Top 8 format)
2005: 12,243 (Top 6 format)
 
Hull V Huddersfield
2012: 8,662 (Top 8 format)
2007: 12,140 (Top 6 format)
 
Leeds V St Helens
2013: 12,189 (Top 8 format)
1998: 13,233 (Top 5 format)

Edited by Pete M, 22 September 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#115 Scubby

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 03:23 PM

What is interesting is the buzz that seems to be created about the 2 play-off games this week (Wire v Hudds and Wigan v Leeds). This gives a sense that the play-offs themselves have appeal but it really needs to have that edge of importance. I predict 16-18k at Wigan and 12k at Wire which will be good going.


Edited by Scubby, 22 September 2013 - 03:23 PM.


#116 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

That was at Knowsley Road.

Yes,but Leeds averaged 17.600 that year.Surely you are not suggesting if it was played at Headingley it would have been less than 12.500?
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#117 Pete M

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

Yes,but Leeds averaged 17.600 that year.Surely you are not suggesting if it was played at Headingley it would have been less than 12.500?

The comparison was Leeds 12,189 attendance at Headingley on Friday which was claimed to be 150 more than the play-off fixture between the same clubs at Headingley in 2007 which was 12,064. I'm pointing out that the 2007 fixture was in fact played at Knowsley Road therefore that comparison is flawed.

 

With regard to your suggestion that the attendance would have been higher in 2007 had it been Leeds V St Helens at Headingley, then yes, I'd agree with you. There were 16,112 for the Leeds V Wigan play-off game in 2007 therefore it's safe to assume a Leeds V St Helens play-off fixture instead would have produced a similar attendance of around 16K (which is way better than the 12K who turned up on Friday), and is a further indication that play-off attendances in 2013 are poor in comparison.



#118 Padge

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:26 PM

That was at Knowsley Road.

Fair enough, my error.

 

If I posted unreferenced material to back up my point I'd expect to be pulled up about it. I wish I had a £ for every time I've seen someone asked to provide a link or a reference to something they'd posted to prove their point. Padge is usually one of the main protagonists.

That chart has been posted on here loads of times with explanations of where the figures were from, I didn't feel it necessary to explain it again. But I did when questioned. As I said last night the figures are available if you have the books, difficult to post a link to a book shelf.

 

Funkhouser however is quoting one figure, with no breakdown of the total from 1968, for every single game in a season including any internationals, all cup matches and finals and possibly pre-season friendlies also it includes every club, he is then comparing that to a figure for just for club league games. Unless he can break it down and show what that single figure consists of then the comparison by him is just a nonsense.



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#119 deluded pom?

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:40 PM

 

That chart has been posted on here loads of times with explanations of where the figures were from

No offence Jim but that's the first time I, and I assume many others, have seen those figures presented by you as a graph. My apologies for being a bit mischievous and playing devil's advocate. I can assure you it had nothing to do with alcohol. ;) 


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#120 Padge

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:54 PM

No offence Jim but that's the first time I, and I assume many others, have seen those figures presented by you as a graph. My apologies for being a bit mischievous and playing devil's advocate. I can assure you it had nothing to do with alcohol. ;)

 

But did you get the 'Jim' quote?



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