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England Squad Announcement


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#321 7723

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

But his dirty streak may result in many penalties against us

 

It may, but the reason I would have him is he is a world class player. I wouldn't have Ablett because he is not a world class player.



#322 boxhead

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

I am assuming you mean Hock. I am happy with him being picked because he is a world class player.

 

Is he?

He has played a handful of Tests.

How many world class players aged 30 have just nine Test caps?

 

He has lived on a series of good games that is not consistent IMO, good players do not have the Club issues he has had between Wigan, Widnes and Parramatta and now Salford.

He reminds me of Carl Webb in the NRL, he had a purple patch where he looked like Boxings Mike Tyson, he milked and lived off that till he eventually retired as an expensive waste of space for the last half of his career.



#323 LordCharles

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:29 PM

If everyone of the squad is 100% come match day and particularly against the aussies, I would have to go with this 17................

 

 

1 - S Tomkins

2 - J Charnley

3 - L Cudjoe

4 - C Ablett

5 - R Hall

6 - K Sinfield

7 - R Chase

8 - G Burgess

9 - J Roby

10 - J Graham

11 - S Burgess

12 - B Westwood

13 - S O'Loughlin

 

14 - R Burrow

15 - G Hock

16 - C Hill

17 - L Mossop

 

 

JMHO   :biggrin:


Edited by LordCharles, 02 October 2013 - 02:32 PM.


#324 RSN

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

Is he?
He has played a handful of Tests.
How many world class players aged 30 have just nine Test caps?

He has lived on a series of good games that is not consistent IMO, good players do not have the Club issues he has had between Wigan, Widnes and Parramatta and now Salford.
He reminds me of Carl Webb in the NRL, he had a purple patch where he looked like Boxings Mike Tyson, he milked and lived off that till he eventually retired as an expensive waste of space for the last half of his career.


Cooper Cronk only has 7 more and he is 30 this year. If Cronk had the same ban Hock has had he would be on less international caps than Hock at the same age.

#325 The Big Gun

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 04:56 PM

Cooper Cronk only has 7 more and he is 30 this year. If Cronk had the same ban Hock has had he would be on less international caps than Hock at the same age.

Did Hock also have one of the best players ever in front of him?



#326 RSN

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

Did Hock also have one of the best players ever in front of him?


The question was would a world class player have so little caps to his name? The answer is yes.

The number of caps you have has little relevance to if you are world class now or not.

#327 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 08:20 PM

Been looking at the squad and comparing it to 2008. Less caps in this squad, but much more NRL experience and our players should be fresher, having played less domestic games than in 2008.

 

It's all set out in my World Cup blog!! http://southwakefiel....wordpress.com/



#328 archibald

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 08:58 PM

We're still not going to win.



#329 Saintslass

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 09:45 PM

We're still not going to win.

I remember in 1996 watching the summer Olympics in Atlanta, USA.  I had grown up being used to us generally failing in all sport but Atlanta was the pits.  We won one gold, eight silver and six bronze medals; a total of 15 medals. Our lone gold was in rowing. Contrast that to Australia.  They won nine golds and 41 medals overall.  John Major as PM decided to redirect some of the newly created national lottery money into developing our Olympic athletes because, to understate the case, as a nation we were a sporting embarrassment.  'What a waste of money' came the cry, mostly from liberal lefties.

 

Fast forward to 2012 and we finished third in the medals table in both the Olympics and Paralympics.  In the Olympics we won 29 golds with an overall tally of 65 medals.  Australia, meanwhile, came 10th with seven golds and a total of 35 medals, went into meltdown and declared it the worst ever Olympics in their entire history.  However, we finished the London Olympics with sporting pride fully restored. 

 

Sixteen years passed between our dismal failure and our amazing success (which could have been even better had our Olympic swimmers actually performed to their potential).  What it took was investment (of all kinds), the right attitude and patience.  We saw what we could do in Bejing.  We went one better in London.  We've probably peaked but who cares?  The experience of peaking for someone like me who grew up with us celebrating perennial failure in sport was a great joy and well worth the wait and money spent.

 

Whether McNamara is the right person to take us forward is open to debate, and personally I am not convinced.  But after the debacle of 2008 world cup the RFL and other interested parties have invested in the international game.  The 2011 Four Nations tournament was a great experience and we showed glimpses there of what we can do.  Whether we can go one further this time and win is anyone's guess but we have more potential now than for a very long time.  We have put in the investment and we have shown patience.  Do we have the attitude?  I think it is our attitude rather than our aptitude now which will make a difference.  And there is absolutely no reason to believe that because something has been like it has for as long as it has, that it is going to remain as it has been.  In 16 years we went from a nation of sporting failure to a nation of incredible sporting success.  There is no reason to believe we can't replicate that transformation in rugby league as we have in other sports.


Edited by Saintslass, 02 October 2013 - 09:46 PM.


#330 boxhead

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 09:50 PM

Cooper Cronk only has 7 more and he is 30 this year. If Cronk had the same ban Hock has had he would be on less international caps than Hock at the same age.

 

As has been mentioned Cronk was waiting behind two of the best Halves in recent memory, his Test career only really kicked off in 2010 bar two fill in Tests.

Once his time came he has been a Test certainty since.

Hock has 2 or 3 spots available to him in the pack to be selected to fill, he was a regular back in 2006 and has since played just five more Tests, one since 2009.

He was banned for two years as a drug cheat, on his day he can be a good player but how often is his day and how much of a liability is he?



#331 faz'_nose

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:16 AM

I remember in 1996 watching the summer Olympics in Atlanta, USA.  I had grown up being used to us generally failing in all sport but Atlanta was the pits.  We won one gold, eight silver and six bronze medals; a total of 15 medals. Our lone gold was in rowing. Contrast that to Australia.  They won nine golds and 41 medals overall.  John Major as PM decided to redirect some of the newly created national lottery money into developing our Olympic athletes because, to understate the case, as a nation we were a sporting embarrassment.  'What a waste of money' came the cry, mostly from liberal lefties.
 
Fast forward to 2012 and we finished third in the medals table in both the Olympics and Paralympics.  In the Olympics we won 29 golds with an overall tally of 65 medals.  Australia, meanwhile, came 10th with seven golds and a total of 35 medals, went into meltdown and declared it the worst ever Olympics in their entire history.  However, we finished the London Olympics with sporting pride fully restored. 
 
Sixteen years passed between our dismal failure and our amazing success (which could have been even better had our Olympic swimmers actually performed to their potential).  What it took was investment (of all kinds), the right attitude and patience.  We saw what we could do in Bejing.  We went one better in London.  We've probably peaked but who cares?  The experience of peaking for someone like me who grew up with us celebrating perennial failure in sport was a great joy and well worth the wait and money spent.
 
Whether McNamara is the right person to take us forward is open to debate, and personally I am not convinced.  But after the debacle of 2008 world cup the RFL and other interested parties have invested in the international game.  The 2011 Four Nations tournament was a great experience and we showed glimpses there of what we can do.  Whether we can go one further this time and win is anyone's guess but we have more potential now than for a very long time.  We have put in the investment and we have shown patience.  Do we have the attitude?  I think it is our attitude rather than our aptitude now which will make a difference.  And there is absolutely no reason to believe that because something has been like it has for as long as it has, that it is going to remain as it has been.  In 16 years we went from a nation of sporting failure to a nation of incredible sporting success.  There is no reason to believe we can't replicate that transformation in rugby league as we have in other sports.


Excellent post!

#332 Big Red Keev

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 08:38 AM

The question was would a world class player have so little caps to his name? The answer is yes.

The number of caps you have has little relevance to if you are world class now or not.

Totally agree. I seem to remember as Hock came through he had the likes of Farrell, Sculthorpe and Ellis in front of him. Along with Peacock and to a lesser extent Morley who still at the time alternated between the front and second row. I dont know if any of these players is neccessarily amongst the best players ever, but they are all certainly top class International standard players who would have taken some displacing. I think considering his lengthy ban and the amount of time it takes to reaclimatise to top class sport the number of caps he has is more than reasonable and certainly makes his case as valid as Cronks.



#333 boxhead

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:25 AM

Totally agree. I seem to remember as Hock came through he had the likes of Farrell, Sculthorpe and Ellis in front of him. Along with Peacock and to a lesser extent Morley who still at the time alternated between the front and second row. I dont know if any of these players is neccessarily amongst the best players ever, but they are all certainly top class International standard players who would have taken some displacing. I think considering his lengthy ban and the amount of time it takes to reaclimatise to top class sport the number of caps he has is more than reasonable and certainly makes his case as valid as Cronks.

 

Maybe.

Andy Farrell's last Test was in 2004

Paul Sculthorpe's last Test was in 2006

Adrian Morley's last Test game at Second Row was 2003

Jamie Peacock's last game at Second Row was 2009

 

The players he has had to displace include Ellis, JJB,  Wilkin, Coley, Sinfield, Burgess, Purdham, Westwood, Heighington and O' Loughlin.

Some of those players are not really "World Class" depending on what your guidelines are.

 

Anyway opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one.

 

England can do better that playing Hock IMO.


Edited by AndyCapp, 03 October 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#334 redjonn

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:46 PM

I remember in 1996 watching the summer Olympics in Atlanta, USA.  I had grown up being used to us generally failing in all sport but Atlanta was the pits.  We won one gold, eight silver and six bronze medals; a total of 15 medals. Our lone gold was in rowing. Contrast that to Australia.  They won nine golds and 41 medals overall.  John Major as PM decided to redirect some of the newly created national lottery money into developing our Olympic athletes because, to understate the case, as a nation we were a sporting embarrassment.  'What a waste of money' came the cry, mostly from liberal lefties.

 

Fast forward to 2012 and we finished third in the medals table in both the Olympics and Paralympics.  In the Olympics we won 29 golds with an overall tally of 65 medals.  Australia, meanwhile, came 10th with seven golds and a total of 35 medals, went into meltdown and declared it the worst ever Olympics in their entire history.  However, we finished the London Olympics with sporting pride fully restored. 

 

Sixteen years passed between our dismal failure and our amazing success (which could have been even better had our Olympic swimmers actually performed to their potential).  What it took was investment (of all kinds), the right attitude and patience.  We saw what we could do in Bejing.  We went one better in London.  We've probably peaked but who cares?  The experience of peaking for someone like me who grew up with us celebrating perennial failure in sport was a great joy and well worth the wait and money spent.

 

Whether McNamara is the right person to take us forward is open to debate, and personally I am not convinced.  But after the debacle of 2008 world cup the RFL and other interested parties have invested in the international game.  The 2011 Four Nations tournament was a great experience and we showed glimpses there of what we can do.  Whether we can go one further this time and win is anyone's guess but we have more potential now than for a very long time.  We have put in the investment and we have shown patience.  Do we have the attitude?  I think it is our attitude rather than our aptitude now which will make a difference.  And there is absolutely no reason to believe that because something has been like it has for as long as it has, that it is going to remain as it has been.  In 16 years we went from a nation of sporting failure to a nation of incredible sporting success.  There is no reason to believe we can't replicate that transformation in rugby league as we have in other sports.

 

Great post.... and you never even mentioned the cricketing ashes.  Cycling shows us what can be achieved with the right investment and focus to detail.



#335 petero

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:17 PM

Yes but Watkins had a poor game against Wigan, thats the end of his courier

 

Has his own courier does he, well I never, sure he isn't a rah rah in disguise :drag: ?

 

I do not believe that Watkins is the main worry in the backs either neither is Widdop, if finding his true form, Chase and Sinfield though do leave me cold. I wont go into Sinfields case but Chase, well I tend to think that he does not know what he is going to do from one minute to the next at times, so how the hell can anyone else do so?



#336 petero

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

Out of interest, which England centres have been a match for the Aussies - let's say since 1973

Just curious what people think, personally the number can be counted on one finger, and that won't be extended

If you're wanting defence against them then Cudjoe is demonstrably the best option, if it's attack then he is equally demonstrably as good as anyone else, has been consistently in excellent form all season and consistently outplayed all his peers in each game this season.

 

Now I know your just taking the P with that lot of tripe!

For a very simple reply may I refer you towards Cudjoe's last two games when he 'as you put it '  outplayed his opposite numbers.

Should you remain convinced of that then I can only imagine your are on another planet or watching entirely different matches to most other folks :sclerosis: .



#337 Ant

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:38 PM

That's it isn't really

All this back and forth about who should play centre/backs/hooker etc is almost irellavent since if were honest all our backs are equally good - bringing different things to their game and the same for the forwards

The real issue is still the halfbacks and even then I just think they'll need to be decent not brilliant so long as the forward perform

This is where we can say the best options we had probably won't be playing

#338 Ant

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:41 PM

Now I know your just taking the P with that lot of tripe!
For a very simple reply may I refer you towards Cudjoe's last two games when he 'as you put it ' outplayed his opposite numbers.
Should you remain convinced of that then I can only imagine your are on another planet or watching entirely different matches to most other folks :sclerosis: .

Ok troll I'll bite
Cudjoe's last two games
V Hull FC where he tore them to shreds
V Warrington he pretty much kept Atkins out of the game

Shall we comment on three league and cup games v Leeds? Or two league games v Wigan? Where he has demolished his peers?

Look at his stats, then come back to me
Or stay under your bridge

Edited by Ant, 03 October 2013 - 03:44 PM.


#339 GaryO

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:39 AM

Out of interest, which England centres have been a match for the Aussies - let's say since 1973

Just curious what people think, personally the number can be counted on one finger, and that won't be extended

If you're wanting defence against them then Cudjoe is demonstrably the best option, if it's attack then he is equally demonstrably as good as anyone else, has been consistently in excellent form all season and consistently outplayed all his peers in each game this season.

Well Ant since you ask, and although you have termed this post another way I do consider reading between the lines that this post is all about extendiing your personnel opinion of Leroy Cudjoe, so i am going to answer it with my opinion of our best players to have worn the 3 or 4 shirt since '73 for GB/England are:-

 

Keith Senior, Gary Connolly, Garry Scholefield, Jonathon Davies, David Eckersley, Ellery Hanley, John Joyner, Paul Loughlin, Joe Lydon, Paul Newlove, Darren Wright and John Woods

 

Other players who have played in these positions are:-

 

Andy Currier, Les Dyl, Steve Evans, Matin Gleeson, Lee Gilmour, Syd Hynes, Keith Mumby, Daryl Powell, Mike Smith, Chev Walker, Darren Wright, Kris Radlinski and Carl Gibson 

 

Even though some of these players took up these positions other than their accustomed position, I consider that all all those mentioned in both lists are far better players than Cudjoe is or ever will be, and as you can see, never mind extending one finger I have not enough fingers and toes to extend. 


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#340 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:55 AM

Well Ant since you ask, and although you have termed this post another way I do consider reading between the lines that this post is all about extendiing your personnel opinion of Leroy Cudjoe, so i am going to answer it with my opinion of our best players to have worn the 3 or 4 shirt since '73 for GB/England are:-

 

Keith Senior, Gary Connolly, Garry Scholefield, Jonathon Davies, David Eckersley, Ellery Hanley, John Joyner, Paul Loughlin, Joe Lydon, Paul Newlove, Darren Wright and John Woods

 

Other players who have played in these positions are:-

 

Andy Currier, Les Dyl, Steve Evans, Matin Gleeson, Lee Gilmour, Syd Hynes, Keith Mumby, Daryl Powell, Mike Smith, Chev Walker, Darren Wright, Kris Radlinski and Carl Gibson 

 

Even though some of these players took up these positions other than their accustomed position, I consider that all all those mentioned in both lists are far better players than Cudjoe is or ever will be, and as you can see, never mind extending one finger I have not enough fingers and toes to extend. 

This.


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