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#21 Methven Hornet

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:21 AM

 

English Defence League leader and founder Tommy Robinson has left the group, saying he has concerns over the "dangers of far-right extremism".

 

So, someone on the extreme far-right creates an extreme, far-right 'street organisation' and then becomes worried about the dangers of far-right extremism.

You do have to wonder sometimes.


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#22 ckn

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:58 AM

So, someone on the extreme far-right creates an extreme, far-right 'street organisation' and then becomes worried about the dangers of far-right extremism.

You do have to wonder sometimes.

Listening to him and how he's now linked up with former Muslim extremists does make me think that his time in jail has given him time to reflect on what was wrong with his previous message.  Here's a controversial thought for many: what if our justice system does work occasionally?

 

As with other people with criminal pasts, he does deserve a chance to show that he's rehabilitated.


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#23 Futtocks

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:02 AM

Boom.

 

I await a Boo Radley reference.

Given that there were mentions of Mission creep, I was awaiting a Wayne Hussey reference (one for the teenagers, there).


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#24 Wolford6

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:19 AM

There's a difference between being: -

 - A Pressure Group: holding a public protest meeting to draw attention to problems posed by certain muslim social groups

and

 - A Racist Sect: actually initiating violence against individual Moslems, mosques etc.

 

The EDL grew out of a perceived lack of action by the authorities to administer appropriate control measures by exercising existing laws, and to draw attention to institutional pro-muslim bias.

As far as I (and most of my friends and neighbours) can see, nothing has been done to address these issues in Bradford. I can't imagine that Bradford is unique in this aspect.

 

I would guess that the EDL, or a successor movement, will be resurrected as a pressure group to draw attention to the continued inequitable application of the law and the unwillingness of the government and local authorities to sub-divide into social groupings the reports that they release.

 

For example:

 Last week, the Government released a report that stated 32% of Bradford 11-year-olds weren't achieving national standards in literacy.

The Bradford Telegraph and Argus report and the council's reponse left it at that, and said we must try improved teaching methods.

 

However, the Yorkshire Post reported that some Bradford schools were producing 11 year-olds where 60% weren't achieving the standard.

 

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect that: -

 - those "60% failing" schools are all in muslim areas

 - a lot of the children who are failing start school without being able to speak much, if any English 

 - most of the muslim children attending these schools were born in this country to homes where at least one parent was born in this country

 - if one of those "60% failing" schools was in a mixed-ethnicity catchment area, the government would have Ofsted down on it like a ton of bricks.

 - we are not doing those "60% failing" kids any favours by failing to deal with the matter head on with the muslim community and individual parents.

 

Of course, I may be totally wrong in my assumption, but: -

 - Bradford Council will never release figures in a manner that such suspicions could be substantiated or rebuffed.

 - The Bradford T&A will continue to remain selective about which articles are made open to readers' comments.

 - The majority of non-muslim citizens will once again seethe about our great city being portrayed as one big sink estate.


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#25 Wolford6

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:23 AM

Incidentally, I am not, and never have been, involved in any way with the EDL, BNP or any associated organisation.


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#26 Northern Sol

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:54 AM

Listening to him and how he's now linked up with former Muslim extremists does make me think that his time in jail has given him time to reflect on what was wrong with his previous message.  Here's a controversial thought for many: what if our justice system does work occasionally?
 
As with other people with criminal pasts, he does deserve a chance to show that he's rehabilitated.


I watched the documentary on extremism in Luton. He came across as a much more complex character than the one dimensional street thug that most view him as. Certainly he has that in his make-up but I doubt that this is all he ever was.

#27 808tone

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

of course it does

of course you can.

 

 

racism is a long time discussion topic on this forum including the aspects of it that you raise: almost entirely in an articulate and informed way. In all the years that this topic has been discussed from a wide range of perspectives and specific subject matters and nobody from whatever viewpoint on this topic that any posters come from would be as ignorant to have the ideas you suggest.. The two scenarios you raise are ridiculous and in my view disingenuous.

Maybe you should get you head out your ass and answer like any normal person and not sound like some long winded lefty bully...you would do well on Planet Rugby forum.



#28 Methven Hornet

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:50 PM

Listening to him and how he's now linked up with former Muslim extremists does make me think that his time in jail has given him time to reflect on what was wrong with his previous message.  Here's a controversial thought for many: what if our justice system does work occasionally?

 

As with other people with criminal pasts, he does deserve a chance to show that he's rehabilitated.

 

The justice system working occasionally; it would be nice to think so.

He always came across as an immature young man who had fallen into the trap of reacting to complex societal and political problems with a brutally simplistic analysis: it is the fault of them, the very different and visible minority living alongside us. Not the individual radical, not the men and women of bomb, bullet and blade, but the whole community, the men, women and children, old and young. That ancient idea: collective guilt.

And his solution was of equal vintage: the mob. I don't know what Robinson/Lennon had in mind when they came up with the idea of putting some of England's more violent and disaffected people on the streets, but he doesn't seem to have considered why the largest far-right political grouping at the time had shunned the tactic. Or perhaps he did but thought it could be made to work, what with his charisma and that.

 

The fact is that the communities he was blaming, the people he wanted his angry and prejudiced 'street activists' to target, were never going to be intimidated. They, and people from the wider community, were going to react just as vigourously. Which is just what happened. The EDL has been contained, marginalised, and I'm sure that its ex-leaders saw the future as descending into further trouble, both for their 'movement' and themselves personally.

If Robinson/Lennon has come to his senses because of the sanctions applied to him, rather than some sort of personal enlightenment, then fair enough. When I was a young adult in the seventies, when the far-right last used this kind of street agitation, quite a considerable number of people, young people especially, went along with the easy logic of the extremist. It was often quite a straightforward job to persuade them of the error of their prejudices, though. Presenting the alternative arguments, appealing to their innate generosity and tolerance, and exposing the extreme ideologies they were giving their sympathies to, plus a certain, and appropriate, level of pressure, all helped to prise them away. Is this just a more high profile example of that?


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#29 Northern Sol

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

The thing with the radicals is that they only exist because of the larger number of conservatives create the environment for them. He had and still has a very good point about Islamist extremism in the UK. It's not just about the radicals. It's also about the parents of the radicals who bring their kids up to shun Western society and they act all astonished when their kid becomes a terrorist.

#30 808tone

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:19 PM

The thing with the radicals is that they only exist because of the larger number of conservatives create the environment for them. He had and still has a very good point about Islamist extremism in the UK. It's not just about the radicals. It's also about the parents of the radicals who bring their kids up to shun Western society and they act all astonished when their kid becomes a terrorist.

 

 

The thing with the radicals is that they only exist because of the larger number of conservatives create the environment for them. He had and still has a very good point about Islamist extremism in the UK. It's not just about the radicals. It's also about the parents of the radicals who bring their kids up to shun Western society and they act all astonished when their kid becomes a terrorist.

Add in the the blind left wing so called anti fascists like UAF.



#31 Northern Sol

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:45 PM

Add in the the blind left wing so called anti fascists like UAF.


Yes, dreadful people as bad as the EDL.

#32 JohnM

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:59 PM

Maybe you should get you head out your ass and answer like any normal person and not sound like some long winded lefty bully...you would do well on Planet Rugby forum.

 

there's nothing like a well-researched and  evidence-based opinion..and your contribution is exactly that....it's nothing like a well-researched and  evidence-based opinion. Have you considered RL fans as your spiritual home?



#33 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:05 PM

What was he in prison for?
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#34 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:21 PM

I don't know a great deal about Tommy Robinson, but I switched on Newsnight last night to see him being interviewed by Jeremy Paxman.

 

I'm strongly opposed to violent politicised marches in the street that are designed to stir up trouble and hatred, whoever is organising them, and if Robinson is renouncing that activity I'm very glad to see it.

 

His main concern seems to be Sharia Law. If I understood him correctly he is against Sharia Law having any legal standing within British society.

 

Is there anyone on this Forum who believes that Sharia Law should have such a role?

 

I always understood that Sharia Law, according to Islamic teaching, should be applied in an Islamic state, but only in that context.



#35 gingerjon

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:29 PM

Is there anyone on this Forum who believes that Sharia Law should have such a role?

 

Of course it - like any other religiously-inspired law - has no place in this country.

 

I've seen quote after quote of Robinson's where he doesn't mention sharia law at all.  Just Muslims and what they're getting away with.


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#36 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

I heard someone say its about settling disputes and family arguments in their commmunity.Sounds like Godfather stuff to me
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#37 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:36 PM

I myself don't know enough about it,but in our society we cannot have A State within a State
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#38 Larry the Leit

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:05 PM

I don't know a great deal about Tommy Robinson, but I switched on Newsnight last night to see him being interviewed by Jeremy Paxman.

 

I'm strongly opposed to violent politicised marches in the street that are designed to stir up trouble and hatred, whoever is organising them, and if Robinson is renouncing that activity I'm very glad to see it.

 

His main concern seems to be Sharia Law. If I understood him correctly he is against Sharia Law having any legal standing within British society.

 

Is there anyone on this Forum who believes that Sharia Law should have such a role?

 

I always understood that Sharia Law, according to Islamic teaching, should be applied in an Islamic state, but only in that context.

 

Sharia law is as alien to the law of any democracy as bishops sitting in a legislative house by virtue of their position within their sect.


Edited by Larry the Leit, 09 October 2013 - 03:17 PM.


#39 gingerjon

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:08 PM

I myself don't know enough about it,but in our society we cannot have A State within a State

 

That's devolution ######ed.


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#40 808tone

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:12 PM

there's nothing like a well-researched and  evidence-based opinion..and your contribution is exactly that....it's nothing like a well-researched and  evidence-based opinion. Have you considered RL fans as your spiritual home?

 

 

there's nothing like a well-researched and  evidence-based opinion..and your contribution is exactly that....it's nothing like a well-researched and  evidence-based opinion. Have you considered RL fans as your spiritual home?

Is this an ode from Pam ayres ...tis what tis not.






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