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An example of a fair and open market


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#41 JohnM

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:41 PM

Found one.  Looking at Excel spreadsheets on an iPhone is a challenge to say the least...

 

Link to Excel file of the data that went into comprising the government's Quarterly Energy Prices document

 

Prices of gas paid by UK power distributers and producers

2012 average price per KWh: 2.135p

Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

A rise of 1.2% since 2012.

 

It does show real and justifiable links to why prices have gone up over the last decade or so but this year's 9% ish rises seem to be more than disproportionate.  Made especially disproportionate by Centrica making almost the same profit % rise as the % rise of their consumer gas bills.

 

Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.

 

However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013

 

still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.



#42 RidingPie

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:49 PM

But the government is telling up to wear a jumper

http://www.huffingto...3&utm_hp_ref=uk
*note that inspite of the headline thats NOT what the government said.

although the multimillionaire owner of Centrica did give us this gem of advise in the face of souring gas bills

wear two jumpers!
http://www.telegraph...his-winter.html
*sadly this actually IS true

#43 Griff9of13

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:06 PM

Fleet Street Fox weighs into the debate

 

Anyone who suggests renationalising our utilities is accused of Stalinism, as though expecting to keep people warm was the same as killing 20million with gulags and a planned famine.
 
Yet these prices only ever rise; the executives are only ever paid more; and we turn the thermostat down by increments until we arrive at the point we're effectively doing without fuel altogether.
 
That's Stalinism, right there - the promotion of an elite at the expense of the many while saying it's for your own good.

 

 

 


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#44 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:20 PM

Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.
 
However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p
then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013
 
still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.


Or in absolute terms 0.1p/KWh. When you consider the domestic price is in to order of 8-9p/ KWh percentage increases give a very distorted picture. The power companies try to justify the increases in percentage terms when in reality their profitability etc would be the same if they just passed on the absolute price increase

#45 JohnM

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:22 PM

but...but...prices WILL continue to rise under any regime. If we are to secure our energy supplies, invest in low pollution alternatives,  and if we are to  cut energy usage to combat global climate change warming  etc, the only was is up, no matter what King Cnut Ed promises.



#46 JohnM

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

Or in absolute terms 0.1p/KWh. When you consider the domestic price is in to order of 8-9p/ KWh percentage increases give a very distorted picture. The power companies try to justify the increases in percentage terms when in reality their profitability etc would be the same if they just passed on the absolute price increase

 

OK, but what I don't get is why no one in any country anywhere on earth is willing or able to do anything about it. Indeed, as posed earlier in post #19

 

In the first half of 2013 domestic prices for gas were lower in the UK than in the majority of other EU member states. The UK has long had among the cheapest domestic gas in the EU.



#47 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:28 PM

Of course prices will increase, but look at the graph that was posted the wholesale price in 2008 was about 40p/therm similar to 2007 but the domestic price for those two time was much more in 2008.

It's not the fact that prices will rise, of course they will, it's the way the market behaves that is the problem.

#48 ckn

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.

 

However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013

 

still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.

Looking at it on a desktop, you're right about where I should have done the comparison.  The thing is that there was an unexpected and quickly corrected spike in the market in June caused by market speculation over a cold winter that may have put the prices out for Q2 this year.  We'll have to wait for the full 2013 figures to get the overall year average price.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#49 JohnM

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:13 PM

 The whole thing is a mess. These are big enterprises that need big systems, lots of people, lots of stuff etc ands I don't see how having new entrants, or bringing back some of those that left) is going to change things unless they have access to sources other than those the big six use. 

 

As the price increases than I try to cut energy use ( a good thing surely?) to keep the bill the same. There will of course be a limit and domestic wind power and PV panels don't make economic sense even here in windy and sunny Lincs. So what will our bills be like in ten years or 20 years time?

 

Time for one of these? article-0-0E6FDDCD00000578-201_634x403.j



#50 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

But the government is telling up to wear a jumper

http://www.huffingto...3&utm_hp_ref=uk
*note that inspite of the headline thats NOT what the government said.

although the multimillionaire owner of Centrica did give us this gem of advise in the face of souring gas bills

wear two jumpers!
http://www.telegraph...his-winter.html
*sadly this actually IS true

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-24586951

 

Enter, stage left, the humble jumper. And welcome to a brief snapshot of how headlines sometimes appear despite what might have emerged out of the lips of politicians and their advisers.

 

 

A story about a story that never was. 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#51 RidingPie

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:44 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-24586951


A story about a story that never was.


I did point out that the title in the first story was inaccurate and no one in the government said that. The second story however is accurate and the head of centica definitely gave the two jumpers comment.

#52 archibald

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:52 PM

Did Stalin give people the chance to vote him out of office or did he slaughter any perceived opponents?



#53 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:16 PM

The whole thing is a mess. These are big enterprises that need big systems, lots of people, lots of stuff etc ands I don't see how having new entrants, or bringing back some of those that left) is going to change things unless they have access to sources other than those the big six use.

As the price increases than I try to cut energy use ( a good thing surely?) to keep the bill the same. There will of course be a limit and domestic wind power and PV panels don't make economic sense even here in windy and sunny Lincs. So what will our bills be like in ten years or 20 years time?

Time for one of these? article-0-0E6FDDCD00000578-201_634x403.j


You know what mate dispute allot pontificating that we are pay too much for energy, I think that carbon based energy is too cheap, and agree with you. However I object to market rigging for private gains any excessive income from carbon energy needs to be used to subsidise a holistic approach to a lower carbon ( eventually leading to a carbon free) energy system. This is the big picture that will give profitable returns in 5 to 10 years time. Unfortunately this is far too long for every government (regardless of colour).

The energy supply system is not broke if we Allow a fair market and remove the power of the big six.

Take a look at tha graph of the wholesale price of gas and the domestic price. Ask yourself why doesn't one of the big six drop their prices to 2011 levels ( where the wholesale price is similar to now but the domestic price is ~20%. Lower). If they did that they'd probably get the major share of the Uk energy market. Why is that not good business ..............unless you are part of a cartel.

#54 archibald

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:26 PM

Take a look at tha graph of the wholesale price of gas and the domestic price. Ask yourself why doesn't one of the big six drop their prices to 2011 levels ( where the wholesale price is similar to now but the domestic price is ~20%. Lower). If they did that they'd probably get the major share of the Uk energy market. Why is that not good business ..............unless you are part of a cartel.

I work in a sector that has 3 "big" players in the UK, and it is our aim to take as much business as possible from each other, unfortunately, we all share the same main customer who doesn't want their number of potential suppliers reduced so will never say "here, you have the lot".

 

If the aim of these energy companies is to simply generate cash for their shareholders, then ultimately the only way is to destroy the competition. BG doesn't want E-ON and SSE to have any success, it wants them to disappear forever so it can hoover up their customers.



#55 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

I work in a sector that has 3 "big" players in the UK, and it is our aim to take as much business as possible from each other, unfortunately, we all share the same main customer who doesn't want their number of potential suppliers reduced so will never say "here, you have the lot".

If the aim of these energy companies is to simply generate cash for their shareholders, then ultimately the only way is to destroy the competition. BG doesn't want E-ON and SSE to have any success, it wants them to disappear forever so it can hoover up their customers.


If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

The only answer why they don't is they are in a cartel and if they broke ranks the whole cabal would fall down with every gas company operating in a truley competitive market and profits would be minimal.

#56 archibald

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:42 PM

If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

The only answer why they don't is they are in a cartel and if they broke ranks the whole cabal would fall down with every gas company operating in a truley competitive market and profits would be minimal.

They don't do it, because every ###### else would follow suit. So they'd gain nothing.



#57 Larry the Leit

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:44 PM

If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

The only answer why they don't is they are in a cartel and if they broke ranks the whole cabal would fall down with every gas company operating in a truley competitive market and profits would be minimal.

 

See post #20.  It's not like they're not making vast profits now is it?


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#58 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:49 PM

They don't do it, because every ###### else would follow suit. So they'd gain nothing.


Which is what I said so at least we agree they are operating a cartel.

#59 Larry the Leit

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:50 PM

Which is what I said so at least we agree they are operating a cartel.

 

Which is why I don't see the need for the extended debate.  If they were putting up prices and their profits were remaining broadly static, then in all honesty there'd be little complaint. 


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#60 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

Which is why I don't see the need for the extended debate. If they were putting up prices and their profits were remaining broadly static, then in all honesty there'd be little complaint.


Agreed but it is obvious to me ( who understands the gas supply network ) that they are profiteering at the expense of the British public with the complicity of countless governments, unfortunately it's the poorer ones of society that bear the brunt if this uncontrolled market rigging.

This is not capitalism it is exploiting the capitalist system ( uncontrolled capitalism if you want)




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