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"Scotland has the lowest average household water bills in these Islands."


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#21 ckn

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:07 PM

I use the Scottish parliament building as a case study for when I'm explaining to senior executives what happens when they allow scope creep to go unchecked. Over 20,000 change requests approved in total, most from politicians who shouldn't have been allowed near the project. Most government project failures anywhere in the UK can usually be put down to idiot politicians interfering or changing the scope and getting all huffy and precious about their status.

I think that any politician that interferes with a project should be liable for every extra £ of overspend. They can either pay back as cash from their personal estate or we can deduct £10 for every punt to the private parts a taxpayer can give them.

Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#22 archibald

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:38 AM

I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising.


That's because you're either in a heroin induced coma or are too busy beating each other senseless at various football grounds to give a toss about outsiders.

#23 Larry the Leit

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:44 AM

I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, although are you sure that the prejudices you display here didn't shine through? People can be so sensitive about that sort of thing.

 

 

 

Are English born people really a different ethnic group to Scots?  I'm not sure that Scotland is universally tolerant, I'm not sure whether you've noticed or not but there seems to be some tension between a couple of the main christian sects.


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#24 JohnM

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:07 AM

Ha! A Tory, and an admirer of Thatcher to boot, calling someone a demagogue.
 

Holyrood was Westminster. There was a perfectly good building in the Old Royal High School but the Westminster government of the time didn't want to use it as, apparently, it was a 'nationalist symbol'. Contrast and compare with modern capital projects - various road and rail improvements, the new Forth Bridge - that come in on time and under budget since Westminster's PFI/PPP craziness was abandoned.

Edinburgh trams is an Edinburgh council project which the SNP minority government tried to cancel in 2007. It was voted down by the unionist parties.

On the whole, the devolved government and parliament have a good track record of deliverying, especially since a Scottish-based party took control. The day the start doing things like constructing aircraft carriers without planes to go on them is the day I'll start witholding my support.
 

Keep up!
 

Project Fear is the in-house name of the Better Together campaign - the proof is in the pudding! As Alan Cochrane, Telegraph columnist and arch-Unionist, said in one of his columns, whoever thought of that title should be taken out and shot. Another name/slogan they came up Got your excuses lined it I see.with is UKOK. :D

 

Got your failure excuses script off pat,I see. Like Belushi in the sewer scene in The Blues Brothers, " It not my fault!"

 

Project Fear is the in-house name of the Better Together campaign 

 

No it isn't.

 

Overall, a  stereotypical response, picking an argument with your own side...like a Saturday night in Sauchiehall Street.


Edited by JohnM, 21 October 2013 - 08:11 AM.


#25 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:56 AM

For someone who tediously holds to account anyone who expresses even the most trivial stereotype on here, that is an incredible piece of prejudiced nonsense.  So you had a hard time from a bigot at a wedding in Fife years ago - get over it. As you would preach to others expressing a similar level of ignorance, you can't judge the many by the few.

As for the SNP, it's funny that the party has many English members (most of the English people I work with voted for them in 2011), has English MSPs and had, until recently, two English-born ministers in the eight strong Scottish Cabinet. Alex Salmond is as much of an Anglophile as you're likely to find in Scotland (or anywhere else for that matter) and I can honestly say that I've never had any problems from the SNP, its members or its supporters. In my experience - and I'm not stupid enough to assume this holds true for all unionists/British nationalists - I've found that the worst Anglophobia comes from the most hardline opponents of Scottish independence. (And, laughingly, so do most references to Braveheart).

I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, although are you sure that the prejudices you display here didn't shine through? People can be so sensitive about that sort of thing.

I stereotyped no one

I was careful not to do so.

Of course I don't think that all SNP supporters correspond with the impression I was careful and sincere in pointing out specifically what related to my own experience, and certainly that applies to Scots people in genaral.

I mistrust nationalism of any kind.

 

on a point of information I've had this kind of experience several times. and on another point the wedding was that of a scots friend and I had an absolute ball.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 21 October 2013 - 08:58 AM.

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#26 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:04 AM

Are English born people really a different ethnic group to Scots?  I'm not sure that Scotland is universally tolerant, I'm not sure whether you've noticed or not but there seems to be some tension between a couple of the main christian sects.

along with the reported cases of abuse of english people in Scotland

an orange walk in Glasgow is a sight to behold-very disturbing.

 

and to consider scots people an ethnic group raises some worrying questions.

 

I wonder what Hardeep singh Kohli makes of it

http://www.bing.com/...selectedIndex=2


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 21 October 2013 - 09:14 AM.

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#27 ckn

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:57 AM

Isn't it just as easy to say that everywhere you go in the world there will be ignorant, arrogant people who think anyone from outside of their family's narrow culture and 2 miles of where they grew up is worthy of abuse?

 

I don't think Scotland is any better or worse than England in that respect, they have some points they're better than England, for example their tolerance of non-Scots, they have some points they're worse, for example their outdated sectarianism.  A Jewish friend of mine said to me once that the safest two places in the world to be a Jew were Glasgow and Belfast during the marching seasons!

 

The thing, as pointed out by MH above, is that the "no" campaign seems to be full of the type of people who are most likely to be arrogant, abusive or snobbish to foreign or English people.  The condescension alone from those people would be enough to make me vote "yes" out of spite towards them.

 

Legally, Scots, English, Welsh and Irish are accepted and defined ethnic groups within the UK.  There have been a few law suits that have succeeded on that principle.  To answer the point about Hardeep Singh Kohli, you can be of asian heritage, much like him and Tony Singh with their love of Scotland and kilts, and still be considered ethnically Scottish.  It's a thing of birthplace and belonging.

 

On this, Scotland is so far ahead of England it's ridiculous.  If you're of non-white appearance but were born in Scotland and say you're Scottish then you're accepted as a Scot both explicitly and implicitly.  In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time.  For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent, most people like you have such strong foreign accents".  There was nothing malicious in this but, FFS, you don't have to be white to be English!  I'd hate to be non-white in England with the casual, utterly unintended but unconscious and real racism that I see regularly.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#28 JohnM

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:14 AM

Maybe is the circles you move in.

 

Here in east Lincolnshire, quite a few people seem quite racist , xenophobic and colour prejudiced. The say the Lincs coast is not at the end of the world...but you can see it from here.

However, in my working life, I've never come across the sort of comments you make in your last paragraph, though I have met some anti-English attitudes when dealing with the Scottish  division of a major British  company I worked for for 20 years.

 

Then there is Methven, who does his best to disagree  even with people who agree with him!



#29 ckn

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

Maybe is the circles you move in.

 

Here in east Lincolnshire, quite a few people seem quite racist , xenophobic and colour prejudiced. The say the Lincs coast is not at the end of the world...but you can see it from here.

However, in my working life, I've never come across the sort of comments you make in your last paragraph, though I have met some anti-English attitudes when dealing with the Scottish  division of a major British  company I worked for for 20 years.

 

Then there is Methven, who does his best to disagree  even with people who agree with him!

Maybe it's because I look for it that I see it.  Here in the south east of England:  On busy trains, the seat next to a young asian man will be the last one taken.  On buses, people are far more reluctant to give up their seats to pregnant asian women.  If an asian man sits next to a white person, especially older ones, you can see them tense up as if they were going to be blown up.  I've seen people decide to wait on the next tube because someone getting on in front of them is dressed in traditional muslim clothes.  An asian man with a backpack tends to look like someone from a Right Guard advert going by how much space people give him.  I've had more than a few HR people tell me "remember to check his passport for proof of nationality and right to work" when I'm going to interview someone with an asian name, I've never, not once in hundreds of interviews, been asked to do the same for a white guy, even if they have a non-English name, and I've never been asked to show mine either.  I could go on...

 

This isn't BNP or NF level racism, it's usually utterly unconscious and not malicious in meaning but it's still racism.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#30 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:27 AM

I'm not sure how the "No campaign" is based on a hatred of all things Scots and yet is winning hands down. I think a bit of personal bias is showing through.



#31 Larry the Leit

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:49 AM

In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time.  For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent".  

 

The Essex accent really is appalling.  Your wife seems to have rid herself of it well.


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#32 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:08 AM

Isn't it just as easy to say that everywhere you go in the world there will be ignorant, arrogant people who think anyone from outside of their family's narrow culture and 2 miles of where they grew up is worthy of abuse?

I don't think Scotland is any better or worse than England in that respect, they have some points they're better than England, for example their tolerance of non-Scots, they have some points they're worse, for example their outdated sectarianism. A Jewish friend of mine said to me once that the safest two places in the world to be a Jew were Glasgow and Belfast during the marching seasons!

The thing, as pointed out by MH above, is that the "no" campaign seems to be full of the type of people who are most likely to be arrogant, abusive or snobbish to foreign or English people. The condescension alone from those people would be enough to make me vote "yes" out of spite towards them.

Legally, Scots, English, Welsh and Irish are accepted and defined ethnic groups within the UK. There have been a few law suits that have succeeded on that principle. To answer the point about Hardeep Singh Kohli, you can be of asian heritage, much like him and Tony Singh with their love of Scotland and kilts, and still be considered ethnically Scottish. It's a thing of birthplace and belonging.

On this, Scotland is so far ahead of England it's ridiculous. If you're of non-white appearance but were born in Scotland and say you're Scottish then you're accepted as a Scot both explicitly and implicitly. In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time. For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent, most people like you have such strong foreign accents". There was nothing malicious in this but, FFS, you don't have to be white to be English! I'd hate to be non-white in England with the casual, utterly unintended but unconscious and real racism that I see regularly.


It is just as easy and entirely legitimate
However that isn't what I was doing
What was doing was expressing my disdain and mistrust of those who express it especially when they do so boorishly and ignorantly, and the way that can be expressed in terms of for instance attitudes to 'outsiders'
I'm very curious to see how things pan out with Scotland should it become independent
Hardeep Singh is a Scottish Sikh and therefore doesn't conform to the notion of a Scottish race that methane alluded to. I don't believe this is a desirable concept and Singh confounds it hence I used him to illustrate the point
No wonder Jews feel safe in Glasgow and Belfast during the marching season: the bigots are busy hating each other

 

on the subject of feeling safe

 

http://www.pressandj...le.aspx/1786002

 

http://www.telegraph...n-Scotland.html


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 21 October 2013 - 12:13 PM.

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#33 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:58 PM

what would happen if the SNP didn't get its way in the referendum?


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#34 ckn

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:02 PM

what would happen if the SNP didn't get its way in the referendum?

I can see repatriation of powers to Westminster both by overt and covert methods.  The threat of independence has been the big stick Scotland has waved for years now, devolution was thought by many to be the independence killer but all it's done is show the Scots what they can get from their local government powers.  Without the threat of independence hanging over Westminster, there's absolutely no incentive for them to grant the devolved executive any more powers and absolutely no bar to them repatriating powers.

 

The devo-max offering is probably the one that would have achieved a solid majority in Scotland but it doesn't suit the vested interests of either the SNP or the Westminster politicians.  Strange that, the thing that the electorate probably wants the most is the one that's not going to be offered to them...


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#35 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:05 PM

I hope not.

Either they should get their own country or stop banging the independence drum.

Devo max is just "Can we have our cake and eat it?".

Actually it is not even that.

It's "We demand to have our cake and eat it you English pigs".

#36 ckn

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

I hope not.

Either they should get their own country or stop banging the independence drum.

Devo max is just "Can we have our cake and eat it?".

Actually it is not even that.

It's "We demand to have our cake and eat it you English pigs".

Not really... it essentially would turn the UK into the US model of federal UK and state Scotland.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#37 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

I can see repatriation of powers to Westminster both by overt and covert methods.  The threat of independence has been the big stick Scotland has waved for years now, devolution was thought by many to be the independence killer but all it's done is show the Scots what they can get from their local government powers.  Without the threat of independence hanging over Westminster, there's absolutely no incentive for them to grant the devolved executive any more powers and absolutely no bar to them repatriating powers.

 

The devo-max offering is probably the one that would have achieved a solid majority in Scotland but it doesn't suit the vested interests of either the SNP or the Westminster politicians.  Strange that, the thing that the electorate probably wants the most is the one that's not going to be offered to them...

where will such a vote leave the SNP

what is the likjelihood of the referendum not coming up with the goods for them?


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#38 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:14 PM

I hope not.

Either they should get their own country or stop banging the independence drum.

Devo max is just "Can we have our cake and eat it?".

Actually it is not even that.

It's "We demand to have our cake and eat it you English pigs".

I have a lot of sympathy for your view.

Are there any of those wartime forts in the North Sea vacant?


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#39 ckn

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

where will such a vote leave the SNP

what is the likjelihood of the referendum not coming up with the goods for them?

The SNP would still have a very important role if they lost the independence vote.  They'll probably be stronger than they would if they won as they have a good record in shielding the Scots from Westminster policy whereas the other parties are just by-blows of the main parties full of people who couldn't get chosen as a Westminster MP candidate.  If they won the independence vote then I'd see Labour becoming more resurgent as an independent party and taking the country back into minority or coalition rule.

 

I think the "yes" campaign will build steam as time goes and it'll be a close-run thing but I think the "no" vote will win.


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#40 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

Not really... it essentially would turn the UK into the US model of federal UK and state Scotland.


I'm not quite sure that this is how the SNP will be selling it.




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