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Bully syndrome - England?


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#1 gnidir

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:29 PM

Im wondering if anyone else thinks that England seem to have a bully like condition.

 

We are consistently aggressive and able to pile pressure on smaller nations (Italy as an exception), but we seem to struggle when playing those seen as better than us, perhaps its a gap in quality, but is it a mental barrier we have that holds us back more?



#2 flyingking

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:43 PM

Let's not forget that Ireland got physically battered by Fiji at Rochdale, had two less days to recover, and IMHO only have one genuine international class player (Pat Richards). It is therefore unsuprising they looked flat for most of the game.
Fiji also looked unrecognisable tonight from the team of earlier in the week.
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#3 Dave T

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:48 PM

Im wondering if anyone else thinks that England seem to have a bully like condition.

We are consistently aggressive and able to pile pressure on smaller nations (Italy as an exception), but we seem to struggle when playing those seen as better than us, perhaps its a gap in quality, but is it a mental barrier we have that holds us back more?

we do ok against the Kiwis.

The only team who we never beat are the Aussies.

#4 walter sobchak

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:59 PM

Im wondering if anyone else thinks that England seem to have a bully like condition.
 
We are consistently aggressive and able to pile pressure on smaller nations (Italy as an exception), but we seem to struggle when playing those seen as better than us, perhaps its a gap in quality, but is it a mental barrier we have that holds us back more?

For me it's a lack of quality in attack. in recent times our(GB/England) forwards have more than matched the Aussies and kiwis but it's been our lack of attacking options that have been our downfall, As a kid I grew up(late80's early90's) watching players like andy Gregory, Gary schoefield, ellery Hanley, Jonathan Davies etc scoring tries, creating tries or just making breaks from absolutely nothing. we just don't seem to throw the ball around or chip over the top as much as I remember we used to do, all our tries seem to come from close range efforts rather than flowing moves from inside or just outside our own half.

#5 GeordieSaint

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:03 AM

in recent times our(GB/England) forwards have more than matched the Aussies and kiwis

 

I disagree with that comment; it is a myth that we match the Aussies in the forwards. Bar the odd individual game, we tend to get battered by them. Cardiff wasn't this time around, but every game at Elland Road, down under, even Wembley in 2011, are forwards got steamrolled by the Aussies. The Kiwis in the northern hemisphere I agree with...


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#6 RSN

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:34 AM

we do ok against the Kiwis.

The only team who we never beat are the Aussies.


+1

Out of the Aussies 17 I'd have pretty much just as many of their players as I'd have of there's. We just can't seem to beat them. I really don't know why.

Edited by RSN, 03 November 2013 - 02:35 AM.


#7 gnidir

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:17 AM

I agree that many of our players are technically and physically as good as the Kiwis and Kangaroos, but I do wonder if they lack the mental toughness, which leads to mistakes which often cost us the game.

 

I don't think its a lack of desire to win, but possibly holding that mindset in the moment which could be the reason we are so often so close, yet so far. Also added to this are performances away from home.



#8 boxhead

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:33 AM

I agree that many of our players are technically and physically as good as the Kiwis and Kangaroos, but I do wonder if they lack the mental toughness, which leads to mistakes which often cost us the game.

 

I don't think its a lack of desire to win, but possibly holding that mindset in the moment which could be the reason we are so often so close, yet so far. Also added to this are performances away from home.

 

 

Not sure if England are Technically as good as Oz or NZ.

There are still players that seem to struggle to catch and pass on a consistent basis, never mind the more technical  plays.



#9 markleeds

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:59 AM

There was nothing about the Ausses last night that England should fear. They don't like it when it gets too physical and start making mistakes like Thurston getting caught with the ball on the six tackle and a load of knock ons.

IMHO if we have a bit of confidence (and a fair ref) we can easily beat them?

#10 boxhead

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:01 AM

There was nothing about the Ausses last night that England should fear. They don't like it when it gets too physical and start making mistakes like Thurston getting caught with the ball on the six tackle and a load of knock ons.

IMHO if we have a bit of confidence (and a fair ref) we can easily beat them?

 

 

Its a shame none of them have played Origin, that would have toughened them up.



#11 dibbley

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

Mentally we've never been tough enough, as we don't get exposed to the same intensity as they do. 

 

Our instincts in situations of pressure and intensity end up costing us, and their instincts in the same situations end up benefiting them. 

 

They play in a more intense competition, and the best players get to play in the Origin games too, which is up an even higher level, and possibly the highest level of all. 

 

Through these experiences they learn how to handle the pressure.  They're not super human.  They make mistakes, unforced errors etc etc.  The difference is they'll be put back in that same pressure situation many many times during a season, if they don't adapt and learn then they're gone and someone else will take their place.  To survive and excel their instincts evolve to make the right decision under pressure, and to stay composed when the heat is on. 

 

Our instincts aren't able to evolve in the same way because the competition over here is not as intense, big teams can get away with mistakes and errors all day long, and so our better players don't need to learn or adapt to survive in the competition.  Some players get to experience a few truly intensive encounters a year, but most do not.  If our players had it week in week out, with the same intense Origin series too, we'd beat them on a regular basis.

 

Even though they have the edge on us, there is absolutely no reason why they can't be beat.  Yeah they know how to handle the big game, but they don't always execute, far from it.  They're only human, and they do make errors, more than people think.  Everytime we go at them with real heart and controlled aggression, taking the fight to them, they really don't like it, and they start to wobble, we've done it many times to them, we just haven't been able to stick with it and capitalise. 

 

To beat them when it matters we've got to go to a level we've never been to before and not just for 80 mins, for the next 4 weeks!

 

The best thing for British rugby would be to beat them in the final, to be 4 points up in the last 10 mins, and to not crack, to not let go, to be stronger, to be the very opposite of what they expect us to be, composed, and focused under extreme pressure and fatigue, to be better than them.  Mentally stronger.



#12 boxhead

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:21 AM

There was nothing about the Ausses last night that England should fear. They don't like it when it gets too physical and start making mistakes like Thurston getting caught with the ball on the six tackle and a load of knock ons.

IMHO if we have a bit of confidence (and a fair ref) we can easily beat them?

Just re read your post.

Points to you for confidence and believing, England can win this if they play the best game they have in them and Oz or the Kiwis do not put their best game out.

 

Not sure if all of the whining about Refs is helping the game though.



#13 CGD

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:49 PM

Every game England lose and every game Australia win, there'll be whining about the refs.

#14 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:05 PM

As a few have pointed out,the problem has always been (in my lifetime anyway) mental toughness and being in awe of the Aussies.I'm sure we heard stories a few years ago of England players asking Aussie players to sign boots for them BEFORE a game.


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#15 CGD

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:20 PM

Who the hell did that? I never heard of such a thing.

#16 christopher

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:24 PM

Im wondering if anyone else thinks that England seem to have a bully like condition.

We are consistently aggressive and able to pile pressure on smaller nations (Italy as an exception), but we seem to struggle when playing those seen as better than us, perhaps its a gap in quality, but is it a mental barrier we have that holds us back more?


Erm apart fromAustralia which other top teams have we struggled with?

#17 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:33 PM

Who the hell did that? I never heard of such a thing.

Players names weren't mentioned but it was during the 2010 4 nations tournament.


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#18 wirecab

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:13 AM

There was nothing about the Ausses last night that England should fear. They don't like it when it gets too physical and start making mistakes like Thurston getting caught with the ball on the six tackle and a load of knock ons.

IMHO if we have a bit of confidence (and a fair ref) we can easily beat them?

...........easily beat them.....??? Love the confidence but beating them by 1 pt with a last second drop will do for me!



#19 Griff9of13

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:28 AM

Every game England lose and every game Australia win, there'll be whining about the refs.

 

Unlike the Aussies. Oh, hang on, didn't their coach have to be dragged away from Ashley Kline after the last world cup final? :rolleyes:


Edited by Griff9of13, 04 November 2013 - 11:28 AM.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#20 Paddsy

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:36 AM

I believe this attitude is etched into the British from a very early age. Nice thread. 






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