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TONY BENN


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#21 808tone

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:23 PM

That's gratifying to hear, reassuring too

Cheers mate  ;)



#22 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:52 PM

Cheers mate  ;)

You are not my mate


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#23 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:32 PM

talking to Jeremy Vine on radio 2 right now.

sounding very frail and mindful of the end of his life approaching

but still as sharp as a tack and still as radical

 

an inspiration to me throughout my life.

 

Interesting you should say that.
 
Benn, like a lot of politicians, has Jekyll and Hyde elements to his personality.
 
He can be immensely charming, thoughtful and gracious.
 
But he was probably the most ruthless major politician in Britain since the Second World War. His ambition was an incredible driving force and made him extremely unpopular with many other leading politicians in the Labour Party. He was also a brilliant manipulator of the media and he was incredibly image conscious.
 
Jack Straw, for example, voted for him in the 1981 Deputy Leadership election, but only because of the poisonous atmosphere that had been engendered within the Party at that time. Straw admitted that he may have had to fear deselection if he hadn't voted for Benn.
 
As he said: “My vote for Tony Benn was really out of cowardice. I was ashamed of it. I still am. Benn was ruthless. I know there’s this upper-middle class veneer – utterly ruthless in pursuit of his own ambition.”
 
The upper-middle class thing is quite interesting. I always felt (and I was a member of the Labour Party at the time) that many members of the Party were actually quite deferential to posh people who expressed their ideas in a refined way. We saw it later with Blair, although the views he expressed were admittedly quite different to those of Benn.
 
Benn's focus on his own image was apparent in June 1985, when he introduced the Miners' Amnesty (General Pardon) Bill into the Commons. It proposed an amnesty for all miners imprisoned during the strike, including the two men convicted of murder (subsequently reduced to manslaughter) for the killing of the Welsh taxi-driver David Wilkie, who was taking a non-striking miner to work in South Wales during the strike. They dropped a massive concrete block on his car from a bridge, killing him instantly.
 
Benn knew perfectly well that his Bill could never be enacted, particularly when it proposed an amnesty for two people who had committed a crime that had horrified the nation. It's very difficult to see what the miners gained from his support during that conflict.

Edited by Martyn Sadler, 07 November 2013 - 12:33 PM.


#24 808tone

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:33 PM

You are not my mate

Jesus you very up yourself.



#25 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:08 PM

 

Interesting you should say that.
 
Benn, like a lot of politicians, has Jekyll and Hyde elements to his personality.
 
He can be immensely charming, thoughtful and gracious.
 
But he was probably the most ruthless major politician in Britain since the Second World War. His ambition was an incredible driving force and made him extremely unpopular with many other leading politicians in the Labour Party. He was also a brilliant manipulator of the media and he was incredibly image conscious.
 
Jack Straw, for example, voted for him in the 1981 Deputy Leadership election, but only because of the poisonous atmosphere that had been engendered within the Party at that time. Straw admitted that he may have had to fear deselection if he hadn't voted for Benn.
 
As he said: “My vote for Tony Benn was really out of cowardice. I was ashamed of it. I still am. Benn was ruthless. I know there’s this upper-middle class veneer – utterly ruthless in pursuit of his own ambition.”
 
The upper-middle class thing is quite interesting. I always felt (and I was a member of the Labour Party at the time) that many members of the Party were actually quite deferential to posh people who expressed their ideas in a refined way. We saw it later with Blair, although the views he expressed were admittedly quite different to those of Benn.
 
Benn's focus on his own image was apparent in June 1985, when he introduced the Miners' Amnesty (General Pardon) Bill into the Commons. It proposed an amnesty for all miners imprisoned during the strike, including the two men convicted of murder (subsequently reduced to manslaughter) for the killing of the Welsh taxi-driver David Wilkie, who was taking a non-striking miner to work in South Wales during the strike. They dropped a massive concrete block on his car from a bridge, killing him instantly.
 
Benn knew perfectly well that his Bill could never be enacted, particularly when it proposed an amnesty for two people who had committed a crime that had horrified the nation. It's very difficult to see what the miners gained from his support during that conflict.

 

I agree with you

the amnesty bill was ridiculous. The men who dropped the concrete block were acting entirely on their own account. Their actions had as one would expect no connections with the actions of the union(although you wouldn't have thought it if you listened to the government and the media). Quite simply they were murderers and deserved all they got.

 

There were vplenty of things that Benn said and did that I wasn't keen on-I have given an example already.

I was a labour party member in the eighties-in Wakefield and Norfolk. I don't recall any deference to posh people, because there weren't any-Colin Croxall was about as near as it got.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 07 November 2013 - 01:10 PM.

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#26 archibald

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:49 PM

He wanted to let 2 blokes who killed someone because they didn't like the perectly acceptable choice he made in how to live his life get away with it? Beneath contempt.



#27 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

He wanted to let 2 blokes who killed someone because they didn't like the perectly acceptable choice he made in how to live his life get away with it? Beneath contempt.

it was

although as Martin said he knew the bill would never get anywhere


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#28 WearyRhino

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:30 PM

Jack Straw, for example, voted for him in the 1981 Deputy Leadership election, but only because of the poisonous atmosphere that had been engendered within the Party at that time. Straw admitted that he may have had to fear deselection if he hadn't voted for Benn.

As he said: “My vote for Tony Benn was really out of cowardice. I was ashamed of it. I still am. Benn was ruthless. I know there’s this upper-middle class veneer – utterly ruthless in pursuit of his own ambition.”

The upper-middle class thing is quite interesting. I always felt (and I was a member of the Labour Party at the time) that many members of the Party were actually quite deferential to posh people who expressed their ideas in a refined way. We saw it later with Blair, although the views he expressed were admittedly quite different to those of Benn.


That says a lot more about the naked ambition, and unprincipled utilisation of patronage within the party, of Straw than it does Tony Benn. Straw was a predecessor of mine as Chair of Leeds University Union Labour Club and I have spoken to a number of his contemporaries who confirm that his ability to groom support for his rise to the top, through the NUS to Member for Blackburn and Cabinet, showed little in the way of principled stance. It could be argued that he is the very model of a 'modern' Labour politician.

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#29 808tone

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:14 PM

That says a lot more about the naked ambition, and unprincipled utilisation of patronage within the party, of Straw than it does Tony Benn. Straw was a predecessor of mine as Chair of Leeds University Union Labour Club and I have spoken to a number of his contemporaries who confirm that his ability to groom support for his rise to the top, through the NUS to Member for Blackburn and Cabinet, showed little in the way of principled stance. It could be argued that he is the very model of a 'modern' Labour politician.

Hence you are an close minded person when it comes to other people's view's on other forum's.



#30 WearyRhino

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:26 PM

Hence you are an close minded person when it comes to other people's view's on other forum's.


YOU are accusing ME of being closed minded?

Edited by WearyRhino, 07 November 2013 - 08:27 PM.

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#31 808tone

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:40 PM

YOU are accusing ME of being closed minded?

You come across as labour till I die type.



#32 WearyRhino

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:48 PM

You come across as labour till I die type.


I've just slagged off a Labour grandee. I left the party after 12 years membership 20 years ago.

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#33 808tone

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:50 PM

I've just slagged off a Labour grandee. I left the party after 12 years membership 20 years ago.

Opps…sorry



#34 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:47 AM

 

Interesting you should say that.
 
Benn, like a lot of politicians, has Jekyll and Hyde elements to his personality.
 
He can be immensely charming, thoughtful and gracious.
 
But he was probably the most ruthless major politician in Britain since the Second World War. His ambition was an incredible driving force and made him extremely unpopular with many other leading politicians in the Labour Party. He was also a brilliant manipulator of the media and he was incredibly image conscious.
 
Jack Straw, for example, voted for him in the 1981 Deputy Leadership election, but only because of the poisonous atmosphere that had been engendered within the Party at that time. Straw admitted that he may have had to fear deselection if he hadn't voted for Benn.
 
As he said: “My vote for Tony Benn was really out of cowardice. I was ashamed of it. I still am. Benn was ruthless. I know there’s this upper-middle class veneer – utterly ruthless in pursuit of his own ambition.”
 
The upper-middle class thing is quite interesting. I always felt (and I was a member of the Labour Party at the time) that many members of the Party were actually quite deferential to posh people who expressed their ideas in a refined way. We saw it later with Blair, although the views he expressed were admittedly quite different to those of Benn.
 
Benn's focus on his own image was apparent in June 1985, when he introduced the Miners' Amnesty (General Pardon) Bill into the Commons. It proposed an amnesty for all miners imprisoned during the strike, including the two men convicted of murder (subsequently reduced to manslaughter) for the killing of the Welsh taxi-driver David Wilkie, who was taking a non-striking miner to work in South Wales during the strike. They dropped a massive concrete block on his car from a bridge, killing him instantly.
 
Benn knew perfectly well that his Bill could never be enacted, particularly when it proposed an amnesty for two people who had committed a crime that had horrified the nation. It's very difficult to see what the miners gained from his support during that conflict.

 

 

Great post Martyn.  

 

I like your point about the class and the deference shown to posh people.  Going way off track, I think we witness this in RL whenever somebody from RU says anything positive about RL there's almost a frenzy to recognise it.  Why do we as people need a mark of endorsement from those we consider to be further up the social ladder than ourselves?


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#35 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:01 AM

Great post Martyn.  

 

I like your point about the class and the deference shown to posh people.  Going way off track, I think we witness this in RL whenever somebody from RU says anything positive about RL there's almost a frenzy to recognise it.  Why do we as people need a mark of endorsement from those we consider to be further up the social ladder than ourselves?

see thread about one of the Mountbatten extended family presenting the world cup


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#36 Trojan

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

Benn's focus on his own image was apparent in June 1985, when he introduced the Miners' Amnesty (General Pardon) Bill into the Commons. It proposed an amnesty for all miners imprisoned during the strike, including the two men convicted of murder (subsequently reduced to manslaughter) for the killing of the Welsh taxi-driver David Wilkie, who was taking a non-striking miner to work in South Wales during the strike. They dropped a massive concrete block on his car from a bridge, killing him instantly.
 
Benn knew perfectly well that his Bill could never be enacted, particularly when it proposed an amnesty for two people who had committed a crime that had horrified the nation. It's very difficult to see what the miners gained from his support during that conflict.

This incident was an appalling outrage. But in wars, and this was a war outrages happen and are committed by both sides. It's funny though how these outrages by the striking miners are focussed upon and yet the outrages by "Maggie's thugs in blue" are passed over. It's only since the cops have tried to frame a Tory politician that the veracity of everything the police say has suddenly been cast into doubt. As for Tony Benn, he more than most was probably responsible for keeping Labour out of power for a generation. You have to give him credit though, he's roughly the same age as the Queen and has said that, should he still be alive when she dies, he'll attend the Privy Council meeting that proclaims her successor and oppose the proclamation. He seems to be of the opinion that this will prevent the succession, who am I to argue?

Edited by Trojan, 08 November 2013 - 10:19 AM.

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#37 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

This incident was an appalling outrage. But in wars, and this was a war outrages happen and are committed by both sides. It's funny though how these outrages by the striking miners are focussed upon and yet the outrages by "Maggie's thugs in blue" are passed over. It's only since the cops have tried to frame a Tory politician that the veracity of everything the police say has suddenly been cast into doubt. As for Tony Benn, he more than most was probably responsible for keeping Labour out of power for a generation. You have to give him credit though, he's roughly the same age as the Queen and has sais that, should he still be alive, he'll attend the Privy Council meeting that proclaims her successor and oppose the proclamation. He seems to be of the opinion that this will prevent the succession, who am I to argue?

 

I recently read an as yet unpublished biography of somebody involved in the strike.  The description of the relationship between the police and the miners, and some of the tricks that the boys in blue were up to was as good as anything that I've ever read.  Now if only the lazy author would take the time to proof read it, edit it and get it published..... Anne Diamond needs to get a copy too.


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#38 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:26 AM

This incident was an appalling outrage. But in wars, and this was a war outrages happen and are committed by both sides. It's funny though how these outrages by the striking miners are focussed upon and yet the outrages by "Maggie's thugs in blue" are passed over. It's only since the cops have tried to frame a Tory politician that the veracity of everything the police say has suddenly been cast into doubt. As for Tony Benn, he more than most was probably responsible for keeping Labour out of power for a generation. You have to give him credit though, he's roughly the same age as the Queen and has said that, should he still be alive when she dies, he'll attend the Privy Council meeting that proclaims her successor and oppose the proclamation. He seems to be of the opinion that this will prevent the succession, who am I to argue?


The thing being that it wasn't a war and even in a war there are laws and consequences for breaking them.

I think the idea that the British police are always honest and decent went away with the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four cases.

As a young man, it was incomprehensible to me that the claims of duress and planting of evidence were true. I'd have quite happily seen them all hang.

#39 Trojan

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:00 AM

The thing being that it wasn't a war and even in a war there are laws and consequences for breaking them.

I think the idea that the British police are always honest and decent went away with the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four cases.

As a young man, it was incomprehensible to me that the claims of duress and planting of evidence were true. I'd have quite happily seen them all hang.

Thatcher certainly thought it was a war speaking of "the enemy within" and using MI5 to combat the strike. And as I say the dubious tactics used at for example Orgreave certainly convinced the miners that they were in a war. As you say wars have rules, but soldiers break those rules, look at the court martial going on at Bulford now. As for the cops, you may have stopped believing them, but most of the right leaning media (especially the Sun) treated their word as gospel, especially where the Miners' Strike and Hillsborough are concerned,right up to the recent Downing Street shenanigans. They and the Tories seem to have now changed their tune somewhat.

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#40 archibald

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:15 AM

I suppose the question is, why did the police even need to be there?






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