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If Scotland don't qualify

A flawed system?

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#1 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:55 PM

Now that Scotland have beaten the USA, but only by 8 points, we face the likely possibility that they will not qualify despite not losing a game.

This doesn't feel unfortunate, it feels plain wrong. They won't qualify but the USA will with fewer points and having lost to Scotland and France will despite (probably) winning only 1 game.

I suspect that the system will come under a lot of criticism if this happens. However, I don't think the system is necessarily the problem. I think this situation has arised from the sheer lack of internationals that are played. The result has been groups that have been seeded quite obviously wrongly.

Group B is supposedly a stronger group but I suspect that PNG and France are both weaker than many of the teams in Groups C and D. Also Group C is considerably stronger than Group D, which has resulted in the problem for Scotland.

If we played regular internationals with the players available that have been this tournament, then we'd have known about the strength of Italy in comparison to say PNG or France and they'd have probably been in Group B. There would also have been a fairer balance between C and D meaning that we would be much less likely to have a Scotland situation.

#2 latchford albion

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:10 PM

Scotland won by 14 but I agree with your argument.

#3 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:21 PM

I started writing with about 2 minutes to go.

Here's hoping Tonga mean Scotland get the QF place they deserve.

#4 Banbury Wolf

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:22 PM

I agree to some level too, but if Italy go through over Scotland, they'll have done so by gaining the greatest number of points in their group.

Not the most elegant of qualification dynamics in groups C and D (nightmare to explain to the casual sports fan), but it has served this World Cup very well and exposed all teams involved to a great level of competition.



#5 Dave T

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:31 PM

it is wrong. I raised it last week and people dismissed me. Its wrong.

This is the last time this format should be used.

Golden Point fixes this instantly.

#6 Keith T

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:35 PM

A Tonga win or even a draw will see Scotland through and obviously if Italy win then they go through. It would be on points difference which isn't very satisfactory when teams have played different opposition. The way Wales have been playing I think Scotland would have given them a bit of a hiding and that is where Italy got the advantage. Likewise, would Italy have beaten USA.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#7 Banbury Wolf

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:38 PM

it is wrong. I raised it last week and people dismissed me. Its wrong.

This is the last time this format should be used.

Golden Point fixes this instantly.

 

True and I'd be happy with a Golden Point policy too next time around. We'd have to make sure all competing nations got a slightly longer break between matches to aid that process to avoid burnout from long games close together.



#8 Saintslass

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:44 PM

it is wrong. I raised it last week and people dismissed me. Its wrong.

This is the last time this format should be used.

Golden Point fixes this instantly.

I thought golden point was going to be used in the world cup so was surprised when the draw last week was accepted!



#9 ArmchairRhino

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:45 PM

Be tough on the Scots but a good, printable story if they do miss out.

Expect Tonga to show up on Sunday though.
There's no dignity in plastic seats

#10 Steve Fox

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:57 PM

If you discard the cross-group games Italy would have to beat Tonga by three or more points to better Scotland's effort.

#11 abd

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:16 PM

I think the basic idea around creating close match-ups in the groups has worked well. The un-balanced groups could be kept but qualification altered to 5 from A and B, 3 from C and D. The best 3rd in A/B and the best 2nd in C/D. Whether this would ALWAYS work i don't know, but it would almost certainly this time around. France, Samoa and Fiji would certainly be nervous.



#12 Just Browny

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:19 PM

USA lost to France? Wtf is the OP on about?

Look, we need to stop whining and stamping our feet about this. If Scotland had gone to Golden Point vs Italy and lost, and then been eliminated on points difference against a team they had beaten, we'd be up in arms about the injustice of it all. It was within Scotland's gift to finish Italy off, and it was within their gift to pump the USA tonight. They didn't, so now they have to wait and see.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#13 Dave T

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:30 PM

USA lost to France? Wtf is the OP on about?

Look, we need to stop whining and stamping our feet about this. If Scotland had gone to Golden Point vs Italy and lost, and then been eliminated on points difference against a team they had beaten, we'd be up in arms about the injustice of it all. It was within Scotland's gift to finish Italy off, and it was within their gift to pump the USA tonight. They didn't, so now they have to wait and see.

nope.

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#14 Padge

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:03 AM

What ever system/seeding you use it will always be an injustice to some team or another.

 

I think the seeding for this competition, considering the disparity of the nations, has on the whole been excellent.

 

It may be contrived but it makes for a really entertaining competition, and we are in the entertainment business (like it or not).



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#15 mt smart

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:28 AM

Somebody stop the World cup !

 

The Tongan's wanna get off and comeback with a goal Kicker



#16 SteveT

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:53 AM

I agree to some level too, but if Italy go through over Scotland, they'll have done so by gaining the greatest number of points in their group.

Not the most elegant of qualification dynamics in groups C and D (nightmare to explain to the casual sports fan), but it has served this World Cup very well and exposed all teams involved to a great level of competition.

Tried to explain this to my Scotish neighbour who has taken some interest over a pint last night. It's fair to say that the conversation wasn't a success. Positively though, he and my wife (also Scotish) are both incredibly proud of the Scot's performances dispite very little interest in RL!



#17 brooza

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:26 AM

Now that Scotland have beaten the USA, but only by 8 points, we face the likely possibility that they will not qualify despite not losing a game.

This doesn't feel unfortunate, it feels plain wrong. They won't qualify but the USA will with fewer points and having lost to Scotland and France will despite (probably) winning only 1 game.

I suspect that the system will come under a lot of criticism if this happens. However, I don't think the system is necessarily the problem. I think this situation has arised from the sheer lack of internationals that are played. The result has been groups that have been seeded quite obviously wrongly.

Group B is supposedly a stronger group but I suspect that PNG and France are both weaker than many of the teams in Groups C and D. Also Group C is considerably stronger than Group D, which has resulted in the problem for Scotland.

If we played regular internationals with the players available that have been this tournament, then we'd have known about the strength of Italy in comparison to say PNG or France and they'd have probably been in Group B. There would also have been a fairer balance between C and D meaning that we would be much less likely to have a Scotland situation.

USA haven't played France. They beat Kukis and Wales


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#18 Cake Tiger

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:20 AM

Now that Scotland have beaten the USA, but only by 8 points, we face the likely possibility that they will not qualify despite not losing a game.

This doesn't feel unfortunate, it feels plain wrong. They won't qualify but the USA will with fewer points and having lost to Scotland and France will despite (probably) winning only 1 game.

 

 

What the OP means is that France will qualify with only one win in their group, not that they beat the USA.



#19 Evil Homer

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:20 AM

Lebanon have failed to qualify for the last two World Cups without losing a game in the qualifying group.



#20 BBR

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:32 AM

Would France have zero points if they were in Scotland group? This is the format. Deal with it. For me they should include 2 extra teams so the groups are without unfair cross group matches




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