Jump to content


TotalRL.com Shop Alert: Last Ordering Date for Free Pre-Xmas Delivery within UK: 2pm Thursday 18th December!!
Rugby League Yearbook 2014/15 The Forbidden Game League Express League Express Gift Card Rugby League World Rugby League World Gift Card
Buy Now £14.99 / Kindle Buy Now £14.99 / Kindle Print / Digital Subscription Gift Cards Print / Digital Subscription Gift Cards



Photo
- - - - -

Rebel super league clubs now totalling nine


  • Please log in to reply
326 replies to this topic

#41 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,461 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:49 AM

It's funny that the RFL, heavily criticised for not supporting the SL, are doing a remarkable job with the world cup.

 

i don't see anyone posting how rubbish the RFL are and what a shambles the world cup format or organisation is.

 

It's also funny just how united the world cup looks with clubs playing at their respective levels.

 

.......and yet the 3x8 isn't the way forward domestically like it is internationally.

 

There's no 3x8 for international football, the set-up has been criticised (not least by Scotland supporters) and most people seem to be leaning towards believing that it is the free rein Sally Bolton and her team have been given that is the reason for the event's ongoing success rather than anything done from Red Hall.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#42 GaryO

GaryO
  • Coach
  • 575 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:05 PM

It's funny that the RFL, heavily criticised for not supporting the SL, are doing a remarkable job with the world cup.

 

i don't see anyone posting how rubbish the RFL are and what a shambles the world cup format or organisation is.

 

It's also funny just how united the world cup looks with clubs playing at their respective levels.

 

.......and yet the 3x8 isn't the way forward domestically like it is internationally.

 

The world cup provides something fresh, something different, something new, if it became the norm it would become stale.

 

The 3 x 8 format will not take fans long to ignore the same games repeatedly in the same season, I remember this happening a few years ago when the "second tier" was tried with 8 teams, not good. 


"If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

#43 petero

petero
  • Coach
  • 2,833 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

I can tell you what this means,if things stay the same,the game of rugby league will have a slow death,we need to bring back some form of promotion and relegation.We need to bring new life to the game, for clubs with ambition in the championship.Teams need the chance to live the dream and have the chance to compete with bigger clubs.

 

OK we know which clubs this realistically opines to, those few apart how many others could last more than a season or two without going bankrupt, even with a larger share of Sky's cash?

 

P&R is not the same in R/L as say football, the clubs are much poorer and without instant S/L success the old syndrome we had previously, whereby Fev, Cas Halifax and possibly Leigh were the only ones with any realistic chance of supporting the move up into S/L and, even then the yo yo effect was in place with the same ones doing the seasonal rounds of changing Leagues. Even with better fan bases and more cash, that also similarly applies in football but with a larger amount of clubs involved.

 

In recent times both Batley and Dewsbury have been realistic in not accepting promotion as they admitted they could not jusify the expenses required to obtain enough of the right quality of players to run a successful and enduring S/L team, due to their lack of a sustainable fan base.

 

Unfortunately, dreams plus expectations or not, the same will occur again and that is just stupid in the extreme.   



#44 a.n Other

a.n Other
  • Coach
  • 1,548 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:25 PM

most people seem to be leaning towards believing that it is the free rein Sally Bolton and her team have been given that is the reason for the event's ongoing success rather than anything done from Red Hall.


Who was it that took her on and employed her?

#45 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 2,006 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:38 PM

1. There's no 3x8 for international football,

2. the set-up has been criticised (not least by Scotland supporters)

and most people seem to be leaning towards believing that it is the free rein Sally Bolton and her team have been given that is the reason for the event's ongoing success rather than anything done from Red Hall.

1. I could have made this clearer but at international level we have recognised and embraced the development of competitiveness in innovative fashion to the benefit of the game.

2. So one of the emerging nations may have a tough call because of the seeding but the point is that Scotland play clubs of an equal standing and therefore the margins for loss are much smaller.

3. The RFL delegate to a team of capable professionals rather than micro managing and interfering. Sounds about right for a well run executive.


Edited by Ackroman, 09 November 2013 - 12:43 PM.


#46 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 2,006 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:40 PM

The world cup provides something fresh, something different, something new, if it became the norm it would become stale.

 

The 3 x 8 format will not take fans long to ignore the same games repeatedly in the same season, I remember this happening a few years ago when the "second tier" was tried with 8 teams, not good. 

 

It's a shame there's no factual basis to proclaim failure whereas at least I was quoting a fact that the format has been a success. The middle 8 of the early 90's was not the same as is proposed.



#47 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,461 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:53 PM

1. I could have made this clearer but at international level we have recognised and embraced the development of competitiveness in innovative fashion to the benefit of the game.

2. So one of the emerging nations may have a tough call because of the seeding but the point is that Scotland play clubs of an equal standing and therefore the margins for loss are much smaller.

3. The RFL delegate to a team of capable professionals rather than micro managing and interfering. Sounds about right for a well run executive.

 

1/ We have.  This process started for 2008 and with a bit of tweaking has been very successful.

2/ I disagree with the criticisms.  You said you hadn't come across any.  I was just giving one example.

3/ We agree.  The RFL should leave it to the people who know what they're doing rather than needlessly interfering.  Remind me who's the driving force behind the nonsense 3x8?


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#48 ShotgunGold

ShotgunGold
  • Coach
  • 863 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:54 PM

One thing I notice with Rugby League is the nearly constant advocation for major changes.

The system in the place at the moment was only created in 2009 and since then people constantly moan about changing it.

We have a broad international calendar until 2021 but people want that changed (GB Tour, someone even had a Six Nation proposal).

People are always thinking of new areas for London Broncos to move to.

History and stability breeds success, not chopping and changing all the time. If a new decision gets made then I want no more major changes for a least a few decades. Lets get it right.

#49 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,461 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:55 PM

Who was it that took her on and employed her?

 

I've absolutely no idea.  The World Cup comes under the remit of the RLIF.  The RLIF, as we know, is a post box in Sydney.  I don't know when Sally was appointed or by who, or even who she reports to.

 

However, I do know that the World Cup and the RLIF are separate entities to the RFL.

 

I should also make clear that in this 'war' between the SL clubs and the RFL I wouldn't trust either right now.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#50 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,461 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:56 PM


We have a broad international calendar until 2021 

 

I can't have been paying attention.  I know there's a World Cup planned for 2017.  What else is there?  (Genuine question, I've missed this bit).


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#51 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,705 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:01 PM

Re that  qote above, I wanted to write underneath that it seems to me a point that bears some sensible examination.
 
We live in a world now that offers every resident of an original `Our Game' catchment area, many more ways to enjoy their leisure time than thirty / forty years ago.  So too, more money to do it with.  It seems logical to me therefore, that two or three clubs so geographically close together now, that each one is struggling to maintain - let alone increase - its fan base at a financially viable level, should be able to sit down together and talk rationally about survival based on sound business structures and the realities of income generation.


They can do what the heck they want, no skin off my nose and if nobody ever merges I would not care, but the sight of fartown with a rich man and no crowd and Bradford with a crowd and no rich man and halifax still reeling from 2003 makes the job of a few SL clubs dominating ad nauseum all the easier.

Will a challenge ever come from Hull sharing the local resources. What we see in calder in no modern stadia, all the best young players walking away, and the incumbent fans all proud of their respective heritage despitenone of the three ever having got near winning anything at pro level.

The rejection of mergers is that fans will not want to pay to watch contrived entities.

Well tens of thousands of RL fans have packed out stadia in the world cup to do just that. Are clubs right to pamper to traditional but inadequate falling fanbases? Or does a bigger fanbase await anyone brave enough.

Edited by The Parksider, 09 November 2013 - 01:02 PM.


#52 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 2,006 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:22 PM

1/ We have.  This process started for 2008 and with a bit of tweaking has been very successful.

2/ I disagree with the criticisms.  You said you hadn't come across any.  I was just giving one example.

3/ We agree.  The RFL should leave it to the people who know what they're doing rather than needlessly interfering.  Remind me who's the driving force behind the nonsense 3x8?

 I wished to draw a parallel with the world cup to show that this may not be the case. The evidence against is a bit scant at the moment. All we have is a money grabbing exercise based on the fear that the money pot will never grow beyond what 5 or 6 clubs can achieve...

 

....and yet the real success story of the world cup so far is that the interest around every team not just the top 3.

 

..so if a more open minded attitude to the value of RL was taken maybe this nonsense is nothing other than scare mongering by those with little imagination, or more likely interest in taking the sport further domestically.



#53 Blind side johnny

Blind side johnny
  • Coach
  • 9,753 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:36 PM

The fact that championship clubs think they have a say in the future direction of the game is quite sweet, its a bit like the people who dress up in 60s clothes and think the Beatles are still the big thing. Nice to see them but you know they are slightly bonkers.

 

Seriously, the clubs who control the money control the game. In 1895 it was the money clubs who said enough is enough and its never changed since.

 

 

A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

 

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.


Believe what you see, don't see what you believe.


John Ray (1627 - 1705)

#54 sweaty craiq

sweaty craiq
  • Coach
  • 1,780 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:52 PM

They can do what the heck they want, no skin off my nose and if nobody ever merges I would not care, but the sight of fartown with a rich man and no crowd and Bradford with a crowd and no rich man and halifax still reeling from 2003 makes the job of a few SL clubs dominating ad nauseum all the easier.

Will a challenge ever come from Hull sharing the local resources. What we see in calder in no modern stadia, all the best young players walking away, and the incumbent fans all proud of their respective heritage despitenone of the three ever having got near winning anything at pro level.

The rejection of mergers is that fans will not want to pay to watch contrived entities.

Well tens of thousands of RL fans have packed out stadia in the world cup to do just that. Are clubs right to pamper to traditional but inadequate falling fanbases? Or does a bigger fanbase await anyone brave enough.


If RL had never been played in this country and you wanted to launch the sport you would do it via franchising geographical areas
If sky said here lads go create a new comp for Europe and we will fund it to the tune of £50m pa for 5 years then you create an elite of Wigan saints wire Leeds hull London Cardiff Toulouse Catalans Avignon Calder Swansea with a tri nations eng v Wales v France mid season
That sort of backing and you can hit RU to expand the pool and I could understand that strategy
The smaller traditional clubs of Cas Fev HKR fax wakey Leigh Salford Widnes etc would form a pretty good and competitive division beneath a true elite
The fudge is claiming some of these clubs should be in a protected 'elite' offering nothing to the sport and killing ambitious clubs beneath them. I am proud to say my club is debt free and will not have an overdraft any time now without using administration to achieve that position yet I look up and see no guaranteed way forward clubs walking away from debt and playing in poor stadia- yet the system is working!!!!!!

#55 Bulliac

Bulliac
  • Coach
  • 2,728 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:57 PM

A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

 

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

I don't quite get that.

 

It's a bit like saying that my wages aren't my money becasue they belonged to my employer in the first instance, or the money I spent at the shop still belongs to me because it was mine in the first instance. Let's be clear: Sky buy the right to show games and the money they pay belongs to the people who own the rights they have bought, ie the clubs.


Edited by Bulliac, 09 November 2013 - 01:57 PM.

No team is an island.........................................

http://www.flickr.co...s/31337109@N03/

#56 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,461 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 02:24 PM

 

 

..so if a more open minded attitude to the value of RL was taken maybe this nonsense is nothing other than scare mongering by those with little imagination, or more likely interest in taking the sport further domestically.

 

 

I think we agree that as a sport we have something of a habit of selling ourselves cheap.  Even in the World Cup this is true.  You can't get to see the Commonwealth Games for less than £15 but we've got tickets for the semi-final double header going for as little as £10 once people have got the discount.  It's going to be a tough habit to break out of.

 

I think also most people agree that 'something' is not working in the professional/semi-professional game at the moment.  However, it's hard to be certain whether (for e.g.) falling crowds are down to lack of interest or down to the fact that we're in the fifth year of economic uncertainty and crowds and demand for tickets has fallen in every sport in England, not just rugby league.  Sponsorships for sport are also getting harder to obtain - whatever Chuckles Irvine scribbles in the Times about the lack of SL title sponsor being an outrage.

 

One of the key problems I have with 3x8 - and indeed the whole league restructure plan as put forward - is that it's called a whole game solution but in fact is anything but.  It doesn't address any of the issues with the same names being at the top, and it ignores the player pathways underneath the championship.  The connection to the amateur and community games isn't even covered.  I do have other issues which relate to not really 'getting' what the teams in the 8-team division 2 will really be playing for, and also believing that it will be a cold day in hell before any team that starts in the 2nd twelve gets promotion to the 1st twelve for the next season.  It feels like a gimmick in the same way club call feels like a gimmick.

 

So, who should control the game?  The RFL obviously.  But the RFL have not shown themselves to be secure guardians.  They fudged licencing and have policed it poorly since.  They have allowed themselves to be bullied by the clubs on academies and have made a complete horlicks of duel registration.  Next season they want to do away with the Championship Cup - because it's too complicated for them to run a competition for a season when they don't know what 2015 will look like.  The issue about 2015 being one entirely of their own making.  And then they have allowed themselves to be bullied by BARLA and the NCL, and have failed to bring the community game together.

 

I don't agree with all of the tactics of the SL clubs but I can understand their frustration.  I really don't want them to end up in control of the game.  But from the outside looking in it seems that it's the lack of clear direction from the RFL that has led to this situation.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#57 GIANTSTRIDES

GIANTSTRIDES
  • Coach
  • 1,610 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 02:45 PM

Totally agree. For all their faults the RFU keep dreams alive and the sport united. We need a strong France then a strong Wales to have a meaningful European comp, but it wont happen overnight. Until then we need to work out how we keep the media focussed on our international product, if that means two tri nations running simultaneously then so be it.

I like a four year cycle of 2 tri nations, a world cup and a GB tour, we should announce the next 8 years now.

 

 

For a start it is no use compairing our game to Union, for two reason, 1   they have a governing body that have all the right people in the right places, and they have learned a long time ago which Palms to grease ( so to speak ) 2   Union is awash with money compared to League, so they are well capable of subsidising lesser clubs.

 

I agree with you about needing a strong France and Wales, so the way to do that is to Sqaunder money on clubs who have had  100 years to get things right is it ? ( yes that includes the Giants should they get into that position ) It seems to me the fact they have a rich man funding the club, is what gets right up your nose. I am happy to admit when they first got into SL they were not good, but they have built gradually and are now beginning to be competitive, and dispite what you say their crowds are more than double what they were 10 years ago, I think they are trying very hard to copy the Warrington formula, It may well take longer but i think they have a bit more competition.

 

In any event it matters little where they get their money from, as long as they can compete and slowly improve they are a worthwhile SL club. Neither you or me know what plans KD has made for the future of the club, but i know he is no fool.

 

You need to heed Padge and Parky's posts, and get into the real world, You may not like it but It's how it is, and if it does come down to a real power struggle IMO there will only be one winner, The sooner the better for me. The RFL could do with a good shake up, In the words of O Cromwell  " they have sat there far too long for any good they have been doing "  Or something like that. It's been endless new plans that have been going to save the game, only to be scrapped in no time at all.

 

I have a lot more faith in these  so called rebels, and i think they will have their Eye on those who would be King as well.


Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

#58 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 42,643 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 02:49 PM

A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

Just seems to be telling like it is johnny

How is he wrong about 1895?
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#59 Blind side johnny

Blind side johnny
  • Coach
  • 9,753 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 07:41 PM

I don't quite get that.

 

It's a bit like saying that my wages aren't my money becasue they belonged to my employer in the first instance, or the money I spent at the shop still belongs to me because it was mine in the first instance. Let's be clear: Sky buy the right to show games and the money they pay belongs to the people who own the rights they have bought, ie the clubs.

 

 

And Sky can determine the structure of the competition if they want, which is what I said.


Believe what you see, don't see what you believe.


John Ray (1627 - 1705)

#60 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,347 posts

Posted 09 November 2013 - 07:56 PM

A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

 

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

I'll take you on with a debate on both points, bring it on.



Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users