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Murderer should be shown leniency says a posh bloke that's never met him.


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#101 Ackroman

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:43 PM

A great thread.

 

My own personal opinion having read all the posts is that he deserves his sentence because we legislate for this behaviour.

 

One question I have however is do the military try and investigate all killings in a war zone? Was this this guy just unlucky to have been on video?



#102 ckn

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:47 PM

One question I have however is do the military try and investigate all killings in a war zone? Was this this guy just unlucky to have been on video?

No.  Yes.

 

Has it happened before and not been caught?  Undoubtedly.

 

There are some squaddies who are of the opinion that he deserves an extra sentence for being so bone stupid as to commit a murder on camera.  If it had been a less severe crime then it would be on one of those "World's Stupidest Criminal" TV programmes.


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#103 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:08 PM

Who says that irregulars and spies are the same thing? Also, spies are protected by the Hague Convention. It says they must be tried. Not shot out of hand. Apparently
 
It says in the Time article that the spies were tried.
 
The three Germans, LIFE magazine reported in June 1945 — when the U.S. War Department released the images — were German intelligence officers who were captured, tried and shot.

The Nazis were carefully groomed for their dangerous mission [LIFE wrote]. They spoke excellent English and their slang had been tuned up by close association with American prisoners of war in German camps… Under the rules of the Hague Convention these Germans were classifiable as spies and subject to an immediate court martial by a military tribunal. After brief deliberation American officers found them guilty, and ordered the usual penalty for spies: death by firing squad.


I'll take your point on "out of hand". Some kind of trail was required but "brief deliberation" sums up what the trial was worth.

"Spy" is used because "irregular" is something that was not recognised.

http://www.fed-soc.o...ternational-law

In addition, four criteria, incorporated into Article I of the 1907 Annex to the Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, were required to be satisfied before lawful belligerency was established:
Article 1. The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling the following conditions:--
(1) To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(2) To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
(3) To carry arms openly; and
(4) To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war [7].
Individuals who took up arms, or joined an armed force, that did not meet these criteria, were considered to be unlawful belligerents, and were subject to a severe legal regime. Unlawful belligerents were considered to be a threat to every civilized state and individuals falling into this category, including spies, saboteurs, and "guerillas" could be summarily punished, up to and including the death penalty. This rule can be traced well back into the 17th century and before. As the 18th century international law publicist Emmerich de Vattel explained:


Edited by Northern Sol, 12 November 2013 - 04:20 PM.


#104 Larry the Leit

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:34 PM

One question I have however is do the military try and investigate all killings in a war zone? Was this this guy just unlucky to have been on video?

 

He's alive and well.  He's not the unlucky one.

 

I return to a point made earlier, he's not been tried because his colleagues reported him, but despite them not reporting him!


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#105 Tiny Tim

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

No.  Yes.

 

Has it happened before and not been caught?  Undoubtedly.

 

There are some squaddies who are of the opinion that he deserves an extra sentence for being so bone stupid as to commit a murder on camera.  If it had been a less severe crime then it would be on one of those "World's Stupidest Criminal" TV programmes.

Out of curiosity, do they just attach cameras to the stupid ones or is this something they volunteer to have on their helmets?


28m391z.jpg


#106 hoff

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:42 PM

War is dehumanising and as we know people are frequently driven to do terrible things under stress. Whilst i dont condone what Marine A did I cant categorically state that I would not have done the same thing had I been in his shoes.

#107 Futtocks

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:44 PM

War is dehumanising and as we know people are frequently driven to do terrible things under stress. Whilst i dont condone what Marine A did I cant categorically state that I would not have done the same thing had I been in his shoes.

Same here. But I would expect and deserve severe punishment if caught.


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#108 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:45 PM

War is dehumanising and as we know people are frequently driven to do terrible things under stress. Whilst i dont condone what Marine A did I cant categorically state that I would not have done the same thing had I been in his shoes.


Me neither.

#109 hoff

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:47 PM

Same here. But I would expect and deserve severe punishment if caught.


Agreed, the law is the law.

#110 zorquif

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:26 PM

I'll take your point on "out of hand". Some kind of trail was required but "brief deliberation" sums up what the trial was worth.

"Spy" is used because "irregular" is something that was not recognised.

http://www.fed-soc.o...ternational-law
 

 

 

at the risk of getting a little off topic, if we read further - 

 

Although it is clear that the status of unlawful belligerents remains a viable and applicable concept in international law, the nature and scope of the procedural rights that must be accorded to unlawful combatants is less clear. Traditionally, at least in theory, unlawful combatants could be killed out of hand, entitled to little more than a blindfold by way of procedure [23]

 

Footnote 23 says:23. This rule was specifically altered, in the case of spies, by the 1907 Hague Convention which required that "[a] spy taken in the act shall not be punished without previous trial." Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, Annex to the Convention, Art. 30, supra note 7..

 

So spies and other unlawful combatants are clearly viewed differently.



#111 808tone

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 09:30 PM

Let's drop this and talk about Sharon Shoesmith.






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