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The union is doooomed, doooomed I tell you!


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22 replies to this topic

#1 ckn

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:44 PM

If this is the quality of the "No" campaign.  One set of figures released by the SNP showed that an independent Scotland could have the 3rd highest GDP per head in the EU and the very best that the "No" campaign can do is say that Scotland will have to pay more tax to the EU to compensate for all that extra oil money.  It's like saying to someone that they've won the lottery jackpot but then saying it's a bad thing because they'll have to pay a lot of tax on the interest they earn.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#2 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:13 AM

The "poor campaign" is winning by a mile so it can't be all bad.

I'd suggest that the news article that you quoted is simply "not very good". It's too short to really cover anything. It certainly would be a poor argument that Scotland would have the third highest GDP and so will pay more to the EU as a result. However, what is not mentioned but IMO rather key is that the UK has a rebate that Thatcher negotiated, an independent Scotland would have no such rebate and it would not be surprising if payments to the EU were, indeed, higher.

The third highest GDP bit just seems like nonsense though. Luxemburg is far in front. So there would have to be only one "proper country" richer than Scotland in the entire EU. I'd suggest that there would be at least 5 or 6.

#3 gingerjon

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:05 AM

The "poor campaign" is winning by a mile so it can't be all bad.

 

No was winning anyway so the campaign doesn't have to really be any good.  Which is probably just as well.


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#4 Methven Hornet

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:07 AM

If this is the quality of the "No" campaign.  One set of figures released by the SNP showed that an independent Scotland could have the 3rd highest GDP per head in the EU and the very best that the "No" campaign can do is say that Scotland will have to pay more tax to the EU to compensate for all that extra oil money.  It's like saying to someone that they've won the lottery jackpot but then saying it's a bad thing because they'll have to pay a lot of tax on the interest they earn.


You wouldn't believe the ###### Project Fear (as Better Together likes to call itself) have been throwing at us but I think I now understand why the Scottish Government went for a long campaign. People are becoming weary of the scare tactics. Thats why the recent "Vote no or Govan gets it!" threat has provoked such a negative reaction here.

Even many pro-union commentators have become exasperated at the poor quality of the No campaign's arguments. My favourite was when Margaret Curran, Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, came up with her completely bizarre contribution: Her son is studying at an English university, and she doesn't want independence because "he would become a foreigner." Even forgetting the complete absurdity of that statement, why does a senior British politician, and a Labour Party one at that, think being a foreigner is a bad thing?
"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#5 RidingPie

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:24 AM

Its always slightly puzzled me because the torys really -shouldn't- want Scotland to remain in the UK. There are currently 59 MP's from Scotland and I can't remember if its 1 or none of them that are Conservative.

 

Anyway as the campaign runs on I'm expecting top torys to head up there and give really condescending speeches in support of the union, to give and extra boost to the yes campaign.



#6 JohnM

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:33 AM

Its all part of the plan.   Even as a centrist, I really want to see Scotland freed from its dependency on England so both countries can take their rightful places on the world stage.



#7 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:52 AM

No was winning anyway so the campaign doesn't have to really be any good.  Which is probably just as well.

It was winning anyway but the gap has become even wider.



#8 archibald

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:07 AM

Christ, are people still banging on about this. Have the vote, get it over with.



#9 gingerjon

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:34 AM

It was winning anyway but the gap has become even wider.

 

I have to say it's been such a foregone conclusion I've not really been paying that much attention to the polls.


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#10 Larry the Leit

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:37 AM

Christ, are people still banging on about this. Have the vote, get it over with.

 

It's pretty difficult to have the vote before the polling day.  Does this help?



#11 JohnM

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:45 AM

No. bring forward polling day. in fact, don't even have one. We should just move out of Scotland  today, taking with us everything that is ours, like the banks and the money and handing back everything we've got of theirs, including Nicky Campbell and Ian Robertson.


Edited by JohnM, 11 November 2013 - 10:45 AM.


#12 archibald

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:47 AM

It's pretty difficult to have the vote before the polling day.  Does this help?

Move the polling day.



#13 ckn

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

I have to say it's been such a foregone conclusion I've not really been paying that much attention to the polls.

That's a very dangerous attitude to have for unionism's sake.  On-street opinion is for a clear "No" vote but when the "Yes" campaign have had debates with the other side there has been a decisive change in voting intentions.  For once, Dave Cameron has it right in declining a debate with Eck Salmond as he'd lose and not gracefully either.

 

I can still see "No" winning but it'll be a lot closer than people think.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#14 gingerjon

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:47 AM

That's a very dangerous attitude to have for unionism's sake.  On-street opinion is for a clear "No" vote but when the "Yes" campaign have had debates with the other side there has been a decisive change in voting intentions.  For once, Dave Cameron has it right in declining a debate with Eck Salmond as he'd lose and not gracefully either.

 

I can still see "No" winning but it'll be a lot closer than people think.

 

I don't have a strong opinion either way on the vote so I wasn't being damning of anybody in thinking it's already a foregone conclusion.


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#15 Larry the Leit

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

Move the polling day.

 

I'm busy at the moment, would you mind taking up this action?



#16 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 03:42 PM

That's a very dangerous attitude to have for unionism's sake.  On-street opinion is for a clear "No" vote but when the "Yes" campaign have had debates with the other side there has been a decisive change in voting intentions.  For once, Dave Cameron has it right in declining a debate with Eck Salmond as he'd lose and not gracefully either.
 
I can still see "No" winning but it'll be a lot closer than people think.


I do not care about the union. In fact I want Scotland to bugg leave the union but I'm not sure which opinion polls you've been looking at. The yes vote is struggling to get even 30% support and I know of no demographic where they are ahead of the no vote.

#17 ckn

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

I do not care about the union. In fact I want Scotland to bugg leave the union but I'm not sure which opinion polls you've been looking at. The yes vote is struggling to get even 30% support and I know of no demographic where they are ahead of the no vote.

Even on that one statistic.  3 out of 10 people want independence, 5 out of 10 would vote "no" today and the other 2 are undecided.  That's not exactly convincing.  All it would take is some idiot move by the Tories or the Scottish Labour lot realising that Ed Miliband is deliberately distancing himself from them and that 2 out of 10 could go the "yes" way and some of the "no" voters might just not turn out.

 

Also, I just realised that I could be a dual national if I really wanted if Scotland got independence!  Flash the right type of passport for the right occasion...


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#18 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 03:55 PM

Even on that one statistic.  3 out of 10 people want independence, 5 out of 10 would vote "no" today and the other 2 are undecided.  That's not exactly convincing.  All it would take is some idiot move by the Tories or the Scottish Labour lot realising that Ed Miliband is deliberately distancing himself from them and that 2 out of 10 could go the "yes" way and some of the "no" voters might just not turn out.


It's not 3 out of 10. It's 1.5 million out of 5 million. I realise that this is the same proportion but whilst it is possible that 2 voters might switch at the last minute, it is highly unlikely that a couple of million might. Especially since the campaign is already quite old and there has been very little movement from either camp. The independence lobby is consistently at around 25-30% and has been for decades, to double overnight would be quite extraordinary.

#19 bearman

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:34 PM

I remember listening to Salmond in the late 90's and being impressed by his rhetoric.
I thought them if I were a Scot I would probably vote for him. That has coloured my opinion to the point that ever since then I have thought just Brugge off the then.
Thank you for your past contributions to the UK but I struggle to find any positives that you bring to the party today.
Perhaps when they have gone we can leave our clocks set at summer time all year round.
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#20 808tone

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:38 PM

It's funny but Scotland ruled the chart's in 1987 with Proclaimer's/ Hue and Cry and Danny Wilson.






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