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What is the World Cup telling us about UK Rugby League?

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#61 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:01 PM

If I may be so bold
No and that's what's so pathetic about it

Then try something different. It may or may not work. The interest in RL is there, it's just been proven
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#62 charlie stones boots

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:06 PM

The good people of hull where asked to merge clubs for superlesgue.... not likely as I have worn my finger out saying its because of tradition. I hope we all get a boost from the world cup this year I really do.
So our small minded pathetic rivalries continue for another 100 years. Because there IS nothing more exhilarating than a good game of rugby league played against your bitter rivals.
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#63 Johnoco

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:16 AM

Having rivals, whether it is inter-city or inter-village is not pathetic but its completely irrelevant to a world cups aims. It's meant to be a celebration of the game not an excuse to argue about excluding even more people.

Many people from these heartlands were rubbishing the WC before it started and saying it would be a massive failure. Are these now the same ones who show that we should retreat and become even smaller? Not for me thanks.

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#64 The Parksider

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:36 AM

So are you saying that a merged team that no one had any affinity to would pull in a regular 7000 Parky?

 

I haven't a clue what they would pull in in Cumbria with one side Terry. I suppose it'd be over 10,000 a match if they dominated the game and won everything annually, but if they were relegated I suppose it would be  in the hundreds. I can't see "Cumbria" not striking a chord with fans as the record is the county side does draw better gates than the club sides.

 

But the point is now the world cup has seen big gates at championship club grounds, this is being used as argument to say there's the potential for big gates for the incumbent local club. At Rochdale Leigh and Halifax the ridiculous argument was that all those "Locals" attending the world cup games proved something. When it was pointed out the fans attending may well have mostly been from all over the M62 Workington's crowd was then cited as one that would probably have been mainly "locals".

 

Facts are facts and Workington opened in Superleague with 3,500, and after losing all but 2 games they managed to get their crowds down towards the 1,500 mark before relegation when the fans decided to continue to peel away to 800 by 2005 all under the exciting system of P & R which apparently if it comes back will see crowds rise significantly. For me a merged club is as dead in the water as the championship clubs, the only thing that drives success is private money, without that mergers have no chance and nor do Featherstone Rovers. IMVHO of course



#65 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:36 AM

Then try something different. It may or may not work. The interest in RL is there, it's just been proven

Exactly
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#66 StixRooster

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

The World Cup is nearly over, it's been brilliant, so we go back to the club based arguments.

 

We'll never learn... :girldevil:

 

I think that's just answered the question the thread title poses...


Edited by StixRooster, 26 November 2013 - 09:14 AM.

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#67 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:23 AM

I haven't a clue what they would pull in in Cumbria with one side Terry. I suppose it'd be over 10,000 a match if they dominated the game and won everything annually, but if they were relegated I suppose it would be  in the hundreds. I can't see "Cumbria" not striking a chord with fans as the record is the county side does draw better gates than the club sides.
 
But the point is now the world cup has seen big gates at championship club grounds, this is being used as argument to say there's the potential for big gates for the incumbent local club. At Rochdale Leigh and Halifax the ridiculous argument was that all those "Locals" attending the world cup games proved something. When it was pointed out the fans attending may well have mostly been from all over the M62 Workington's crowd was then cited as one that would probably have been mainly "locals".
 
Facts are facts and Workington opened in Superleague with 3,500, and after losing all but 2 games they managed to get their crowds down towards the 1,500 mark before relegation when the fans decided to continue to peel away to 800 by 2005 all under the exciting system of P & R which apparently if it comes back will see crowds rise significantly. For me a merged club is as dead in the water as the championship clubs, the only thing that drives success is private money, without that mergers have no chance and nor do Featherstone Rovers. IMVHO of course

You're right Parky, the game at top level in its present form is financially unsustainable for most of the clubs within the SL and cannot continue as it is, hence the possible forthcoming restructuring. The World Cup proved the public will respond to something completely new. It's been a breath of fresh air and now time for the club game to follow suit.

As for mergers I wonder what we would have now if Lindsay had got his way for the WMDC area. My guess is we'd still be well behind Leeds, Wigan, Warrington Etc attracting no more than eight thousand and having lost three fine clubs. We missed a great opportunity back in 1995 by not creating Area Clubs which competed in summer SL while retaining their local traditional clubs to feed them, which played in winter. Had that happened we would be seeing massive support for the game today.
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#68 The Parksider

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:34 AM

You're right Parky, the game at top level in its present form is financially unsustainable for most of the clubs within the SL and cannot continue as it is, hence the possible forthcoming restructuring. The World Cup proved the public will respond to something completely new. It's been a breath of fresh air and now time for the club game to follow suit.

As for mergers I wonder what we would have now if Lindsay had got his way for the WMDC area. My guess is we'd still be well behind Leeds, Wigan, Warrington Etc attracting no more than eight thousand and having lost three fine clubs. We missed a great opportunity back in 1995 by not creating Area Clubs which competed in summer SL while retaining their local traditional clubs to feed them, which played in winter. Had that happened we would be seeing massive support for the game today.


Steady Terry. the World cup is hardly "something completely new" and the public was respondng to top class international RL. That's the reality isn't it?

How do you manage to make the point that in turn they will respond equally enthusiastically to second tier RL in an unbalanced competition, for the 3 x 8 proposal is just that as is the current Championship.

So I see nothing new in the proposal other than the dividing line between the elite and the rest being raised up to 9th. best SL club down, from the 14th. best.

That is shrinking the elite isn't it? All your left with really IMVHO is the argument that the competition for the SL places in 3x8 will be attractive to fans. The record is only for certain games.

Let's say Widnes were 12th. in SL 2015 and Rovers had slaughtered the rest of the championship into submission. I'd reckon you'd be good for 6-7,000 at POR for that one.

But as we know from ten years of P & R these games are once every other season.

#69 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:32 AM

You're right Parky, the game at top level in its present form is financially unsustainable for most of the clubs within the SL and cannot continue as it is, hence the possible forthcoming restructuring. The World Cup proved the public will respond to something completely new. It's been a breath of fresh air and now time for the club game to follow suit.

As for mergers I wonder what we would have now if Lindsay had got his way for the WMDC area. My guess is we'd still be well behind Leeds, Wigan, Warrington Etc attracting no more than eight thousand and having lost three fine clubs. We missed a great opportunity back in 1995 by not creating Area Clubs which competed in summer SL while retaining their local traditional clubs to feed them, which played in winter. Had that happened we would be seeing massive support for the game today.

The rugby league world cup dates back to 1954


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#70 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:36 AM

Steady Terry. the World cup is hardly "something completely new" and the public was respondng to top class international RL. That's the reality isn't it?How do you manage to make the point that in turn they will respond equally enthusiastically to second tier RL in an unbalanced competition, for the 3 x 8 proposal is just that as is the current Championship.So I see nothing new in the proposal other than the dividing line between the elite and the rest being raised up to 9th. best SL club down, from the 14th. best.That is shrinking the elite isn't it? All your left with really IMVHO is the argument that the competition for the SL places in 3x8 will be attractive to fans. The record is only for certain games.Let's say Widnes were 12th. in SL 2015 and Rovers had slaughtered the rest of the championship into submission. I'd reckon you'd be good for 6-7,000 at POR for that one.But as we know from ten years of P & R these games are once every other season.

As I said to Chris, a new system may work or it may not. What's your solution? It appears the status quo is unlikely and the majority of pro clubs favour the 12/8 system after many meetings and considerable thought.

I'm well aware that the World Cup isn't completely new but when did Halifax, Leigh, Rochdale and Workington last host international rugby league? I wonder if the RFL have hit their local papers and thanked the public for attending in such large numbers? If they haven't then they should and the message should be 'We want you to stay with us and here's the deal....Hope, aspiration and opportunity for you local club'. That would be a good starting point.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 26 November 2013 - 10:37 AM.

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#71 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:58 AM

As I said to Chris, a new system may work or it may not. What's your solution? It appears the status quo is unlikely and the majority of pro clubs favour the 12/8 system after many meetings and considerable thought.

I'm well aware that the World Cup isn't completely new but when did Halifax, Leigh, Rochdale and Workington last host international rugby league? I wonder if the RFL have hit their local papers and thanked the public for attending in such large numbers? If they haven't then they should and the message should be 'We want you to stay with us and here's the deal....Hope, aspiration and opportunity for you local club'. That would be a good starting point.

This 'new' system(sic) seems to find favour amongst the followers of clubs that in their eyes would benefit from it I can't for the life of me think why

What bothers me is that all Catalan have to do is have a bad season and they are out, and or we no longer have a system where a club like Toulouse can be admitted

And replacing that we are likely to have three clubs each with major orchestrated either infrastructure, finance, support base or potential for growth

The upshot will be a victory for small minded self interest which will end in disaster but with doubtlessly timescale people blaming others for it

 

To me this goes against the spirit of this world cup which has been a victory for the open minded, progressive and liberal tendencies of rugby league culture

That a discussion about it has been diverted into the same old same old saddens me but doesn't surprise me 


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#72 West Country Eagle

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:04 AM

Whether the big picture will change after this World Cup is open to debate, but there have been a few things that will make a massive difference, even if it's just on a small scale.

I'll take Bristol as an example, as I obviously know what's going on down here more than other areas. The Sonics have seen a relative surge in interest, with quite a lot of would-be junior and open age players getting in touch. We've also had a few new volunteers come forward and at last night's AGM there was a great feeling around the club for the first time in a while. The events at the Mem have fired everybody up and encouraged newcomers to get involved. The consortium that successfully bid for, and hosted, the game - the two local councils, mainly, with local universities, colleges etc - have arranged a meeting with us to talk about what they can do to boost the game over coming years. Although we've worked with these people before, we've not had as much enthusiasm from them and that willingness to really give us a helping hand. On top of this it looks like we'll have the biggest ever schools programme next year, and on the back of that an expanded local league for youngsters (all the clubs in the region are talking about this, which is a good thing).

Of course, League is still tiny in this part of the world, but there are signs that interest is growing and there's an appetite. The World Cup has given the game down here an enormous boost. That shouldn't be overlooked in a rush to contract and prioritise the same small towns and villages up North that have had the game for 100-plus years. We need to look after them, of course, but in the long run places like Bristol, the Midlands, the South East etc are just as important for the game's continued health.
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#73 redjonn

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

I enjoy both RL and RU, although prefer RL.  But I watch many local RU games and the crowds are very small and can equate to championship level.   Now those RU games are outside the RU Aviva premiership and Championship level but are National league level which I would equate to RL championship level.  The attendances are general not much different between RU & RL at that level.

 

I often read equating the health or interest in the game to attendance.  Yet we bang on about the weakness and poor attendances for RL whilst bemoan the strength of RU who are getting the same levels of attendances of hundreds in the main.

 

Of course the key is to attract other sources of income.   They attract lots of local business sponsorship plus local RU clubs tend to have good club social facilities that can be hired out and have many fund raising events and dinners. They feel much more positive and attractive environments.

 

For me and has been touched upon already RU benefits hugely from the international game.  It provides that huge exposure that trickle down into more commercial interest locally and a more positive branding image for the game.    The comparison between the perceived image of RU and RL is chalk and cheese, positive to downright suicidal negativity.  For me playing around with league structures will have minimal impact on the overall game.   Although I do agree with having P&R - as a comparison half of the RU Aviva Premiership where promoted in the last 8 years and that division is relatively healthy.

 

What it tells me is the international game and image is where the major focus needs to be as this will have the major impact in the mid to long term, not on tinkering around with league structures.


Edited by redjonn, 26 November 2013 - 11:09 AM.


#74 sweaty craiq

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:26 AM

RU championship crowds compare with RL Championship crowds, national leagues with C1, but RL Championship clubs have little to play for, imagine with something to play for again.

 

To move forward we must be united, evangelical and drive revenues. All are linked



#75 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:43 AM

This 'new' system(sic) seems to find favour amongst the followers of clubs that in their eyes would benefit from it I can't for the life of me think why
What bothers me is that all Catalan have to do is have a bad season and they are out, and or we no longer have a system where a club like Toulouse can be admitted
And replacing that we are likely to have three clubs each with major orchestrated either infrastructure, finance, support base or potential for growth
The upshot will be a victory for small minded self interest which will end in disaster but with doubtlessly timescale people blaming others for it
 
To me this goes against the spirit of this world cup which has been a victory for the open minded, progressive and liberal tendencies of rugby league culture
That a discussion about it has been diverted into the same old same old saddens me but doesn't surprise me

The World Cup has been a victory for all RL fans whatever their thoughts and opinions may be of how the game goes from here. I don't know anyone who hasn't enjoyed it apart from the wife as its dominated the TV screen for so long. As for the new proposed system being for the small minded, I would hardly class Hetherington, McManus et al as falling into that category.
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#76 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:43 AM

RU championship crowds compare with RL Championship crowds, national leagues with C1, but RL Championship clubs have little to play for, imagine with something to play for again.

To move forward we must be united, evangelical and drive revenues. All are linked

So what is the World Cup telling us about rugby league?

And it seems to me that you want the want to be united behind your self serving ideas about what the sport needs
How about you get united behind what others think?
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#77 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:46 AM

The World Cup has been a victory for all RL fans whatever their thoughts and opinions may be of how the game goes from here. I don't know anyone who hasn't enjoyed it apart from the wife as its dominated the TV screen for so long. As for the new proposed system being for the small minded, I would hardly class Hetherington, McManus et al as falling into that category.

So hetherington is no longer the devil incarnate there's a turn up for the books
As for enjoying the World Cup I well remember starting a thread on your clubs 'forum' about people's views and plans for the comp do you?
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#78 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:32 PM

So hetherington is no longer the devil incarnate there's a turn up for the books
As for enjoying the World Cup I well remember starting a thread on your clubs 'forum' about people's views and plans for the comp do you?

Don't agree with some things Gary Hetherington stands for but he's never been small minded that's for sure. Don't you mean our club, you being a born and bred Featherstone lad Chris? Everyone has thoroughly enjoyed the World Cup, even Fev fans. It's done wonders for the game in this country and especially the smaller nations, we need to make the best of it now.
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#79 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:40 PM

Don't agree with some things Gary Hetherington stands for but he's never been small minded that's for sure. Don't you mean our club, you being a born and bred Featherstone lad Chris? Everyone has thoroughly enjoyed the World Cup, even Fev fans. It's done wonders for the game in this country and especially the smaller nations, we need to make the best of it now.

It isn't my club
I never want to set foot in the place again

So do you think the people on your club forum who sneered and slung abuse about when asked about their plans and thoughts on the cup will have had a change of heart?
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#80 redjonn

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

In addition to my other comments above I also think the world cup reinforces to me that it isn't essential to have a SL club in London.  International rugby league can give the exposure the game needs around London whilst the non SL or grass roots presence builds.   But even if it didn't providing could have international games or selected club games down there good exposure can be achieved.  With the right promotion I would have thought that a occasional SL game could be promoted down there and it doesn't have to be at Wembley - maybe take one game out of the magic week-end and promote it as part of the magic week-end but down there using technology to integrate it as part of the week-end.


Edited by redjonn, 26 November 2013 - 03:14 PM.






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