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23/11/13 - World Cup Semi Final 1: England v New Zealand (Wembley)


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Poll: Who will win? (110 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. England by 25 points or more (3 votes [2.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.73%

  2. England by 19 to 24 points (1 votes [0.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.91%

  3. England by 13 to 18 points (3 votes [2.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.73%

  4. England by 7 to 12 points (35 votes [31.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.82%

  5. England by 1 to 6 points (22 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  6. New Zealand by 1 to 6 points (8 votes [7.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.27%

  7. New Zealand by 7 to 12 points (11 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  8. New Zealand by 13 to 18 points (16 votes [14.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.55%

  9. New Zealand by 19 to 24 points (5 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  10. New Zealand by 25 points or more (6 votes [5.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.45%

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#741 foozler

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:43 AM

So, Gareth Ellis, James Graham and Sam Burgess only became the players they are because of the NRL? Each of these has won a player of the year award in the NRL, yet they all learned their rugby in the Super League.
Yes by playing in the NRL players have improved. All those who play with and against those 3 players will have improved.
We've got to stop this inferiority complex.

 

There is no doubt that we have some great RL talent in England that can comfortably mix it with the best. It is however clear that playing in the NRL provides an extra level of skill and toughness that we don't currently have in top English RL.

 

For me the NRL should be viewed as a finishing school for the best English players, somewhere for them to go and acquire the extra say 2 or 5% of skill and mental stamina that is required to keep playing for 80 minutes. 


Edited by foozler, 25 November 2013 - 10:43 AM.


#742 Futtocks

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:52 AM

What a match! What skill, daring, physical extravagance, speed and bravery! What a gutting finish! :(  If anyone can lend me some fingernails, I'd be grateful. My heartrate is only just getting back to normal.

 

If Sinfield and Widdop can work that well together on a regular basis, we are looking good for the immediate future. Many of England's stars on Saturday have plenty of good years ahead of them, and the more people we can get to pressurise each and every one of them for selection, the stronger we'll be.

 

Unfortunately, some people never ever climb off their hobby-horses. I'm sure they were blaming <insert name of player from club they don't support> for losing against New Zealand before the RWC even started.


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#743 GaryO

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:56 AM

The majority of that team are SL players.They all came through the British development system (apart from Widdop I think).

 

Not a bad thing to have players in the NRL, but it gets overstated at times imho.

 

Is this statement has with the other posters on this subject being totally honest with themselves or just being over protective of the SL.

 

In all walks of life it is often stated that the more proficient the company you keep the better you will be, good habits are acquired whilst bad habits usually diminish or are improved on. The players who are now plying their trade in this company (NRL) have gained in all manner of skills and principles of the game.

 

If you or any of the posters of your ilk are suggesting the collective personnel of SL are as talented, skilful or as capable as the NRL lot then you are deluding yourselves. I would suggest that you don’t watch the game (via Premier) or if you do, you have difficulty in recognising a faster, tougher and more versatile form of RL, whose best will beat our best far far more often than they lose in the international arena.

 

If more players went across to NRL it would improve our international credentials no end, and I for one can’t wait for that to happen.

 

The personnel who play for Wigan, Leeds, Saints, et al doesn’t bother me, the biggest games are those played by top quality internationals, don’t believe me, just look at the reaction to the NZ game on this site alone. 


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#744 Cumbrian Fanatic

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

At least I can enjoy the final without the emotional stress.

Great approach and one I will now adopt for Saturday even though I know when I get to OT I will become a Kiwi for the day


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#745 Dave T

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:30 AM

Is this statement has with the other posters on this subject being totally honest with themselves or just being over protective of the SL.

 

In all walks of life it is often stated that the more proficient the company you keep the better you will be, good habits are acquired whilst bad habits usually diminish or are improved on. The players who are now plying their trade in this company (NRL) have gained in all manner of skills and principles of the game.

 

If you or any of the posters of your ilk are suggesting the collective personnel of SL are as talented, skilful or as capable as the NRL lot then you are deluding yourselves. I would suggest that you don’t watch the game (via Premier) or if you do, you have difficulty in recognising a faster, tougher and more versatile form of RL, whose best will beat our best far far more often than they lose in the international arena.

 

If more players went across to NRL it would improve our international credentials no end, and I for one can’t wait for that to happen.

 

The personnel who play for Wigan, Leeds, Saints, et al doesn’t bother me, the biggest games are those played by top quality internationals, don’t believe me, just look at the reaction to the NZ game on this site alone. 

I'm not really sure what your point is tbh.

 

The bulk of that team were SL players, Graham and S Burgess were signed by NRL teams due to their talent. 

 

I certainly haven't suggested that all SL players are as good as all NRL players, however the way some people go on you'd think the difference between the NRL and SL is the same as the difference between SL and the French Elite League 1.



#746 GaryO

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:57 AM

I'm not really sure what your point is tbh.

 

The bulk of that team were SL players, Graham and S Burgess were signed by NRL teams due to their talent. 

 

I certainly haven't suggested that all SL players are as good as all NRL players, however the way some people go on you'd think the difference between the NRL and SL is the same as the difference between SL and the French Elite League 1.

 

Dave my point is that by playing in an elite competition you only get better, it is a natural progression. What is being implied on here by some is that we only need to look from within for our International team, when I say the more who have the experience of testing themselves week in week out, will enable us to be better equipped to beat the SH teams.  

 

Do you agree? 


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#747 Dave T

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:09 PM

Dave my point is that by playing in an elite competition you only get better, it is a natural progression. What is being implied on here by some is that we only need to look from within for our International team, when I say the more who have the experience of testing themselves week in week out, will enable us to be better equipped to beat the SH teams.  

 

Do you agree? 

Yep, of course I agree, I don't think anybody is saying that we should look only from within - I haven't seen or heard that opinion.

 

What most believe though is that we can have a great team who can win things with a core of SL players.

 

Sl can create World Class players, the likes of Sean O'Loughlin, Ben Westwood, Brett Ferres, James Roby etc can mix it with the best in the world and have no NRL experience - that is my point. I think the NRL is a higher intensity comp as I think the lower teams are a higher standard than SL's lower teams (it's why I'm happy with a reduction to 12 in SL) - but NRL experience isn't a necessity.



#748 GaryO

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:17 PM

Yep, of course I agree, I don't think anybody is saying that we should look only from within - I haven't seen or heard that opinion.

 

What most believe though is that we can have a great team who can win things with a core of SL players.

 

Sl can create World Class players, the likes of Sean O'Loughlin, Ben Westwood, Brett Ferres, James Roby etc can mix it with the best in the world and have no NRL experience - that is my point. I think the NRL is a higher intensity comp as I think the lower teams are a higher standard than SL's lower teams (it's why I'm happy with a reduction to 12 in SL) - but NRL experience isn't a necessity.

 

Of course we breed very good players and those you mention are very sharp indeed, but IMHO if they had been honed in the NRL they may just have had the experience to close a game out when required, a la Aus game 1 and NZ semi. 


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#749 Dave T

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:30 PM

Of course we breed very good players and those you mention are very sharp indeed, but IMHO if they had been honed in the NRL they may just have had the experience to close a game out when required, a la Aus game 1 and NZ semi. 

Aye, if only George Burgess played in the NRL maybe he wouldn't have been so fatigued that he made a sloppy high tackle and was slow back into the line for the last play.

 

Or if Widdop played in the NRL he wouldn't make appalling plays like the penalty he gave in front of the sticks which gifted the Kiwis 2 points.

 

If only.  ;)



#750 Griff9of13

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:16 PM

Only just caught up with this thread. My thoughts:

 

The result: gutted doesn't even begin cover it. Can't remember ever feeling so distraught at the result of a game ever as a spectator. My other half was welling up at the end I I felt like joining her. Stayed on for the Aus vs Fiji game but I can hardly remember a thing of it other than a feeling of total hollowness. Couldn't bare it any longer than 20 minutes into the second half as I was still just string blankly at the pitch not taking anything in. 

 

The venue/event: first time in Club Wembley and was very impressed by the facilities and the view of the action. As others have said, a very mixed bunch of spectators from all over the world. Our party of 17 included northerners, northern exiles, southerners and a Kiwi or two. The atmosphere was wonderful and the tension palpable. Great experience (barring the result). 

 

The game: one of the very best games I can remember being present at, the skills, commitment and sheer magic moments will live with me for a long time. Yes, some mistakes were made, they always are. If there were no mistakes at all the two teams would nullify each other and the game would end in a nil nil draw. However one thing I would say, and I'm surprised no one has really mentioned that much about it through all these pages of this thread is the poor use of our bench. For me this could be the difference between us winning and losing in the final few seconds. Our pack was just about done with all the possession the Kiwis had in the last few minutes but we (or the coach) chose to play the game with effectively 15 1/2 players instead of 17. Why play Burrow so little and not play Ablett at all? If they really didn't fit into the game plan why have them on the bench in the first place? IMO this one decision It put the other players under unnecessary additional pressure and was possibly the real turning point of the match. 


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#751 Dave T

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:47 PM

Only just caught up with this thread. My thoughts:

 

The result: gutted doesn't even begin cover it. Can't remember ever feeling so distraught at the result of a game ever as a spectator. My other half was welling up at the end I I felt like joining her. Stayed on for the Aus vs Fiji game but I can hardly remember a thing of it other than a feeling of total hollowness. Couldn't bare it any longer than 20 minutes into the second half as I was still just string blankly at the pitch not taking anything in. 

 

The venue/event: first time in Club Wembley and was very impressed by the facilities and the view of the action. As others have said, a very mixed bunch of spectators from all over the world. Our party of 17 included northerners, northern exiles, southerners and a Kiwi or two. The atmosphere was wonderful and the tension palpable. Great experience (barring the result). 

 

The game: one of the very best games I can remember being present at, the skills, commitment and sheer magic moments will live with me for a long time. Yes, some mistakes were made, they always are. If there were no mistakes at all the two teams would nullify each other and the game would end in a nil nil draw. However one thing I would say, and I'm surprised no one has really mentioned that much about it through all these pages of this thread is the poor use of our bench. For me this could be the difference between us winning and losing in the final few seconds. Our pack was just about done with all the possession the Kiwis had in the last few minutes but we (or the coach) chose to play the game with effectively 15 1/2 players instead of 17. Why play Burrow so little and not play Ablett at all? If they really didn't fit into the game plan why have them on the bench in the first place? IMO this one decision It put the other players under unnecessary additional pressure and was possibly the real turning point of the match. 

Yes, the bench was poor. I was surprised to read that Ablett hadn't played at all, as when you are there you can often miss substitutions.

 

If Ablett was only there 'just in case' - I'd rather have seen an extra prop like Mossop on the bench. Our forwards were shot at the end of the game, I think once we took the lead with 10 to go we should have brought Ablett on for one of the forwards as he would have added some energy in the middle of the park.



#752 Saintslass

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:49 PM

Of course we breed very good players and those you mention are very sharp indeed, but IMHO if they had been honed in the NRL they may just have had the experience to close a game out when required, a la Aus game 1 and NZ semi. 

Well, it was an NRL based player who gave away the killer penalty so should he have not done that since he's somehow honed in the NRL and therefore by default better in some unknown regard than those honed in the SL?

 

James Graham was honed in the SL and it was because he was so good that the NRL came after him.  As I've said before, James Graham looked exactly the same player as he has always looked.  I know because I watched him weekly over here and I watch him weekly over there.  He is no different.  I can't speak for the others because they weren't established in their first grade careers before moving to Australia.  But the NRL hasn't made a jot of difference to James Graham.  He was superb here and he's superb there.



#753 Griff9of13

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:17 PM

Yes, the bench was poor. I was surprised to read that Ablett hadn't played at all, as when you are there you can often miss substitutions.

 

If Ablett was only there 'just in case' - I'd rather have seen an extra prop like Mossop on the bench. Our forwards were shot at the end of the game, I think once we took the lead with 10 to go we should have brought Ablett on for one of the forwards as he would have added some energy in the middle of the park.

 

If Ablett was only there 'just in case' as you say, it really is poor game management as at any level, never mind a test match, player rotation plays a vital part of the game. Like you, in that situation I'd have gone with Mossop so as to give us an extra prop to play with. 


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#754 Ant

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:30 PM

Yeah put Mossop on the bench in that game (or even Crabtree!) then what might have happened, G Burgess isn't so tired he puts out a lazy arm, England contain the kiwi attack and run the clock out with the last possession of the game

#755 Catkin

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:36 PM

Not much more to add than other people on this thread but as a Southerner (albeit with the maternal side of my family being from Hull), and as a current member of an old school rugby union club, I wanted to share my experience of this World Cup. I've attended the opening ceremony, the Bristol game and the Headingly quarter final (never been to a live league before but have been following on sky for a few years) and have loved every minute. I'm also a football fan and rugby league combines so much that is good with rugby union (beer, terraces, big hits, affordable pricing) with so much of what is good about football (fast paced action, good atmosphere). I'm not saying it's perfect - clearly it isn't, the big problem being that there are too mismatches (this is an issue both codes of rugby suffer from), but this leads on to the game Saturday.

I couldn't attend live (as it was my anniversary and we were away) but watched the game Sunday without knowing the score and it was the single best sporting event I've seen for drama since the week of Chelsea v Barcelona and Man City QPR (Premier league decider and champions league semi final). Absolutely brutal, end to end drama, I still can't believe the quality of the game! Felt drained at the end so Christ only knows how the players felt. The atmosphere was also the best I've seen at wembley. The biggest compliment that can be given is that my died in the wool union supporting best friend, who I have been trying to persuade to like the sport for three years (and simply could not accept there is anything good to be said about the sport), texted me and said "well, it's changed my opinion of the sport". I guess that's what you call "expansion"!

#756 Griff9of13

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:46 PM

Not much more to add than other people on this thread but as a Southerner (albeit with the maternal side of my family being from Hull), and as a current member of an old school rugby union club, I wanted to share my experience of this World Cup. I've attended the opening ceremony, the Bristol game and the Headingly quarter final (never been to a live league before but have been following on sky for a few years) and have loved every minute. I'm also a football fan and rugby league combines so much that is good with rugby union (beer, terraces, big hits, affordable pricing) with so much of what is good about football (fast paced action, good atmosphere). I'm not saying it's perfect - clearly it isn't, the big problem being that there are too mismatches (this is an issue both codes of rugby suffer from), but this leads on to the game Saturday.

I couldn't attend live (as it was my anniversary and we were away) but watched the game Sunday without knowing the score and it was the single best sporting event I've seen for drama since the week of Chelsea v Barcelona and Man City QPR (Premier league decider and champions league semi final). Absolutely brutal, end to end drama, I still can't believe the quality of the game! Felt drained at the end so Christ only knows how the players felt. The atmosphere was also the best I've seen at wembley. The biggest compliment that can be given is that my died in the wool union supporting best friend, who I have been trying to persuade to like the sport for three years (and simply could not accept there is anything good to be said about the sport), texted me and said "well, it's changed my opinion of the sport". I guess that's what you call "expansion"!

 

Welcome aboard, and thanks for your views.

 

To all the detractors out there (and I don't mean on this board) like Buzz Rothfield etc. this is what a world cup and international rugby league is all about. Spreading the gospel! 


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#757 GaryO

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:45 PM

Well, it was an NRL based player who gave away the killer penalty so should he have not done that since he's somehow honed in the NRL and therefore by default better in some unknown regard than those honed in the SL?

 

James Graham was honed in the SL and it was because he was so good that the NRL came after him.  As I've said before, James Graham looked exactly the same player as he has always looked.  I know because I watched him weekly over here and I watch him weekly over there.  He is no different.  I can't speak for the others because they weren't established in their first grade careers before moving to Australia.  But the NRL hasn't made a jot of difference to James Graham.  He was superb here and he's superb there.

 

Obviously Lass, opinions are what they are, I can't lay claim to watching Graham every week when he was in Super League but I did watch him in every televised game he played for Saints, like your self I to watch the NRL via Premier, and I do think that his game has improved and I am not just saying that for the sake of it.

 

He has always been a fit guy and done more than his share when called on, and again I think that his energy levels have also been given a boost, for what it's worth the performance that Sam B put in on Saturday was probably in my opinion the best I have ever witnessed from a front rower, closely followed by James G, I just don't see them putting in that with the same aplomb had they not been subjected to the rigors of the NRL.

You obviously has stated, watch it weekly, in all honesty can you tell me that SL players are subjected to the same intensity as often.


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#758 Saintslass

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:55 PM

Obviously Lass, opinions are what they are, I can't lay claim to watching Graham every week when he was in Super League but I did watch him in every televised game he played for Saints, like your self I to watch the NRL via Premier, and I do think that his game has improved and I am not just saying that for the sake of it.

 

He has always been a fit guy and done more than his share when called on, and again I think that his energy levels have also been given a boost, for what it's worth the performance that Sam B put in on Saturday was probably in my opinion the best I have ever witnessed from a front rower, closely followed by James G, I just don't see them putting in that with the same aplomb had they not been subjected to the rigors of the NRL.

You obviously has stated, watch it weekly, in all honesty can you tell me that SL players are subjected to the same intensity as often.

I'm not questioning the point made elsewhere that players in the NRL have more frequent intense games - although some are far from intense (and if you've been watching the NRL during 2013 you will know this) - but I am definitely questioning what I consider to be a myth that somehow the NRL turns a player brought up in the SL into a better player.  James Graham has simply always been as good as he was on Saturday.  Even Dave Woods when commentating referred to the exact same defensive work James Graham did in tracking the Kiwi when he was playing for Saints because he did the exact same thing in a Challenge Cup match, and one we were winning quite convincingly.  He regularly made 30 plus tackles in a game, and his halfback style passing at the line resulted in many scores for Saints during his time with us.  I've no doubt that he will have matured and learned things from being in a new environment but what I saw in Jammer on Saturday was precisely what I saw in him when he was at Saints and why I and every other Saints fan was so disappointed to see him go to Australia.

 

The NRL does not create better players out of SL players.  Most of our team on saturday play in the SL and they were all just 20 seconds away from their first world cup final in a few years.



#759 GaryO

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:03 PM

I'm not questioning the point made elsewhere that players in the NRL have more frequent intense games - although some are far from intense (and if you've been watching the NRL during 2013 you will know this) - but I am definitely questioning what I consider to be a myth that somehow the NRL turns a player brought up in the SL into a better player.  James Graham has simply always been as good as he was on Saturday.  Even Dave Woods when commentating referred to the exact same defensive work James Graham did in tracking the Kiwi when he was playing for Saints because he did the exact same thing in a Challenge Cup match, and one we were winning quite convincingly.  He regularly made 30 plus tackles in a game, and his halfback style passing at the line resulted in many scores for Saints during his time with us.  I've no doubt that he will have matured and learned things from being in a new environment but what I saw in Jammer on Saturday was precisely what I saw in him when he was at Saints and why I and every other Saints fan was so disappointed to see him go to Australia.

 

The NRL does not create better players out of SL players.  Most of our team on saturday play in the SL and they were all just 20 seconds away from their first world cup final in a few years.

 

We will most graciously agree to disagree, but highlighted is my point, given that extra maturity and learning factor, they get over the line for mine. 


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#760 bedlam breakout

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:23 PM

no one has yet asked the question- why did all the players have a packet of 10 fags sewn in to the back of their shirts?


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