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Rugby League World - April 2014
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23/11/13 - World Cup Semi Final 1: England v New Zealand (Wembley)


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Poll: Who will win? (110 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. England by 25 points or more (3 votes [2.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.73%

  2. England by 19 to 24 points (1 votes [0.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.91%

  3. England by 13 to 18 points (3 votes [2.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.73%

  4. England by 7 to 12 points (35 votes [31.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.82%

  5. England by 1 to 6 points (22 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  6. New Zealand by 1 to 6 points (8 votes [7.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.27%

  7. New Zealand by 7 to 12 points (11 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  8. New Zealand by 13 to 18 points (16 votes [14.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.55%

  9. New Zealand by 19 to 24 points (5 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  10. New Zealand by 25 points or more (6 votes [5.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.45%

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#61 Chanter

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

Speed at the play the ball is paramount for me, we need to get at them at pace, with back up. Its no point playing 1 man rugby . This should create offside penalties or turn their big pack - I haven't seen any team do this to them so far.

 

We need to take full advantage when in possession, no mistakes and a good kicking display (grubber or high ball) and we simply MUST take our chances....and if NZ have an average game... I think we can do it!    my opinion of it anyway.

 

Come on England!


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#62 hindle xiii

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:15 AM

The only issue with the quick play the balls is we need a strong referee. Waerea-Hargreves is a liability for lying-on, and if only Ben Cummins had the balls to penalise him for it.


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#63 boxhead

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:15 AM

The Kiwis will be able to play a fast or slow game, the speed at the play the ball will not bother the Kiwis.

Kicking for field position and chasers that effectively trap the opposition close to their line will decide this game along with creativity in attack to break the defensive structures.

I think the Kiwis may do this better than England


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#64 roughyedspud

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:35 AM

what we've gotta remember is the kiwis are'nt australia....they are'nt to be scared of....infact they haven't beaten us here in england for 8 years...

 

 

 

this is a tough challange for the kiwis just as much as it is for us...


Edited by roughyedspud, 18 November 2013 - 11:35 AM.

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#65 Southerner

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:37 AM

England will win if:

- We restrict the offloads for NZ.

- We play expansive off-the-cuff running rugby (one up stuff isn't going to work this week).

- We minimalise the errors and penalties (easy metres is something we can't afford to give NZ).

 

On another note lads, I'm heading to Wembley with two Union mates, what are the main England chants so we can improve the atmosphere?



#66 westlondonfan

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:41 AM

I am not sure who's going to win but I have got my ticket and I can't wait for Saturday.

#67 John Drake

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:59 AM

Several posts removed.

 

Keep the personal stuff OFF here.

 

Next one cops a ban.


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#68 Dave T

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:14 PM

I think there are a few players who have played within themselves so far who need to step up.

 

Tomkins - always looks dangerous, but how many actual clear breaks has he made. Would like to see him more decisive and go for it.

 

Watkins - make better calls in defence from the high kicks - twice he should have let the attacker catch the ball and hit them yet he made half-hearted attempts to catch the ball.

 

Chase - showed plenty of decent touches, but at times trying too hard - similar to Tomkins.

 

Sam Burgess - shown glimpses, but nowhere near his NRL form. Needs to up his tempo.

 

George Burgess - as above.

 

If the above players step up a notch, which they are all more than capable of, then our performance will improve massively. We should not fear the Kiwis. Repsect them yes, not fear them.



#69 Gruff

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:14 PM

This is going to be close, but England should win.  Based on potential teams, with the better player in bold, Eng should nick it

 

1 - Locke/Tomkins

2 - RTS/Charnley

3 - Whare/Watkins - pretty even.  Before the WC I would have said Watkins, but he hasn't impressed yet

4 - Goodwin/Cudjoe Cudjoe has really impressed in defence and attack.  Really good partnership with Hall.  Goodwin has looked ok against weaker teams so far

5 - Vatuvei/Hall  

6 - Foran/Chase

7 - Johnson/Sinfield

8 - JWH/Graham - Close but JG versatility gets him over the line

9 - Luke/Roby - Close, but Luke is outstanding if NZ get a roll on

10 - Bromwich/Hill - Close again, and prior to the WC would have said Bromwich - but Hill has been outstanding so far

11 - Pritchard/Westwood

12 - SBW/Burgess

13 - Mannering/O'Loughlin

 

14 - Moa/G.Burgess

15 - Taylor/Widdop

16 - FPN/Ferres - Ferres has impressed but FPN still over him

17 - Kasaino/T.Burgess 

 

8 out of the 17 in favour of England, 6 in favour of NZ and 3 matches.

 

It is going to be close, but NZ have looked impressive based on being able to steam roll through opposition and make the offloads. They won't get that with England so will be looking at their 6/7 to breakdown England's defence.  As good as they are, they are no Thurston/Cronk, and I think they will struggle. 

 

It's going to be a real forward battle, and whilst the NZ has great strength in depth (no Eastwood, Matulino in this 17) it's only the 17 on the day that matter.  English forwards are fitter and faster so will prevail in the end.

 

The key is slowing down the rucks and stopping the offloads.  This is where the risk is - giving away penalties for holding down too long.  If England can slow the rucks down without giving penalties then we will win.



#70 tuutaisrambo

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:30 PM

It's gonna be tough but i think we might edge it............I think England will feel they can beat the kiwis at home as they have done in recent years.

 

The problem is i just can't see us getting anywhere near Australia..............not sure if i'd rather england lose a glorious semi final (extra time drop goal or something) than just get comfortably beaten at arms length by Australia in the final.

 

That's what my stupid brain thinks anyway...........my heart say's we'll win the world cup



#71 mt smart

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:16 PM

There are potentially some intriguing match ups in this contest.

 

Manu Vatuvei is probably not going to play ( groin )

 

 

The Kiwis relied heavily on Manu's heavy running on the kick return  , Jayson Nightingale isn't the same type of player.

 

If it is hard running Kick returns they want then playing Hoffman on that wing would make for an opportunity for Kevin Locke to face his Frenemy Sam Tomkins

 

Tomkins is taking Lockes Club Jersey off him of course , that would be mouth watering If Kevin gets a rare head to head shot at Sam.

 

Tomkins is in another class to Locke , but an out of form Kevin Locke fired up V Tomkins would be a battle within the War worth admission price alone.

 

Sam Burgess V Sonny Bill.

 

Burgess won a unanimous Points decision when these two squared off early in the year , Williams and Burgess are at their peak , can't wait. Williams is a more skill full player all round skill , Burgess is a real strike weapon around the Ruck.

 

Simon Mannering V Sean O'Loughlin , not one many would look to , both players are the glue of their club sides and forwards that are underrated. Neither are flashy players but both teams will rely on them to do a lot of clean up work and both are leaders.

 

Sinfield V Foran ( ignore the numbers on the Jerseys and look at who does what in the halves ) .  Kieran Foran has never reached his club form in a Kiwi Jumper until the Kiwis went away from theif go alone do it all by himself halfback Benji Marshall.

 

Foran without Marshall was a revelation in the losing Kiwi Anzac side , and so far in the WC 2013 he looks very impressive with his kicking game.

 

SinFeild on the other hand though much maligned has been fair.....he's no mug , I like some of his tricky kicks especially the ones he put in V the Kangaroos in the opening game...a lot of the time the Aussies had to let those kicks bounce.

 

 

Rangi Chase V Shaun Johnson :

 

Chase has been unkindly described as a poor mans Benji Marshall ( Tigers fans would tell you Marshall is a poor mans BenJi Marshall these days )

 

Similar players in that they are instinctive halves. Of the two , Johnson looks to have toned down his go it alone with foot work that these two are prone too more so than Chase.

 

The Key when playing Johnson is to get on top of him early....described by James Maloney as a temperamental personality , Johnson is the epitome of a confidence player , take it away and he is a very inexperienced kid out there.

 

Ryan Hall V Roger Tuivasa Sheck. While probably not playing opposite each other both are the pointy tip of the spear.

 

Hall is a champion Winger with  amazing finishing skills , RTS  is the up and comer  who it will be interesting to see how he copes with the pressure of Wembley. 

 

George Burgess is the Impact forward of the two teams then day Light , NZ have a magnificent Prop rotation , but for pure power and quick play the balls....if George holds onto the ball he will make the most impact off the respective benches.

 

The rest of the squads are much of a muchness with NZ having consistency in their forward pack which makes them possibly the strongest of the tournament. While England have players who are the Kiwis equal and superior in the forwards , they haven't showed the Machine like consistency and ruthless controlled aggression , too often a player will throw a head high tackle or mess around in the play the ball , or have poor ball security.

 

All those things are fixable for England and I expect after the way the forwards let England down in the opener  (the Burgi especially) that they will be desperate to play smart footy.


Edited by mt smart, 18 November 2013 - 01:30 PM.

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#72 Konkrete

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:17 PM

Really don't know which way this will go, I think man for man both teams are very evenly matched with the Kiwis just having the edge with that half back pairing.  Couple of things that come to mind though... if it's going to be close then it's likely to come down to goal kicking.  This for me is where Sinfield can show his worth, especially from the touchline.  On the other side I don't see Shaun Johnson as anything like as good from far out.

 

In the pack then we're easliy a match for them physically, however they're miles ahead with the off-loading.  Here's the NZ v England Off-load stats from the top twenty players so far >>>>>

 

Rating / name / off-loads

 

1. SBW = 13

5. Luke = 8

7. Kasiano = 7

8. JWH = 7

14. Hill = 6

19. Matulino = 5

 

The key to winning this match is to shut down the NZ off-loading in the tackle.  It causes a constant disruption to the defence, and that's where they kill teams as the ball then moves wide against a disorganised line.  I think I'd be tempted to kick behind Vateuvei in general play as well, then smash him as he comes back - he does drop the ball quite a bit on kick returns and can be fragile.  I guess the main problem with that is that he'll be on the same side of the field as SBW, which means a load of work for Sam if McNamara goes with him opposite.

 

One other thing.  My first name on the team sheet for this match would be Row Burrow on the bench.


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#73 StixRooster

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:43 PM

Some lengthy posts there and nothing to add to the in depth analysis

 

We need to be error free with the ball and play out the sets, with a good kick to corners etc to turn them round.

 

Defending, disciplined and wrap up the ball.

 

We have the ability, do the players have the self belief? We'll find out by 3pm


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#74 Gruff

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

Last time we played NZ we beat them 4 tries to 1 - that was only two years ago.  There have been a number of changes to each squad, but the retained players are key players.

 

The changes for NZ are;

 

Johnson for Marshall

Whare for Brown

Goodwin for Beale

Vautvei for Smith 

RTS for Nightingale

Pritchard for Manu

Kaisaino for packer

Moa for Blair 

SBW for Glenn.

 

This is an improvement on their 2011 team, but the centres are on a par and it can be argued whether Foran/Johnson of 2013 is better than Foran/Marshall of 2011.  Their forwards are stronger. 

 

Eng changes are;

 

Watkins for Reed

Cudjoe for Yeaman

Hill for Peacock

Burgess for Wilkin

O'Loughlin for Heighington

G.Burgess for Morley

Ferres for JJB

Mossop for Carvell

 

Not as many changes, but equally no change to the critically important 1,6,7,9 combo.  Centres are stronger, and forwards overall are stronger, although arguments for certain individuals.

 

Which is the stronger;

 

2013

 

Hill, G.Burgess, S. Burgess, Ferres, O'loughlin

 

2011

 

Morley, Peacock, Wilkin, JJB, Heighington

 

2013 wins hands down

 

NZ have improved, but so have Eng.  It might be close than 22 points of last time, but Eng should still win



#75 Paddsy

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:06 PM

kiwis have no chance.



#76 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:08 PM

If Vatuvai doesn't play, then the world looks a much better place for us. At that point, their back line becomes much less of a threat.

If we stay close to them at half time, we will win. We have finished all of our games strongly, whereas they have dropped off.



#77 mt smart

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:13 PM

The Foran Johnson combo is far superior to the Marshall ball hogging one man band Kiwis

 

I'd argue that till the cows come home . a Marshall team could never construct the fluid back line moves the 2013 Kiwi's are putting together with relative ease.

 

The only player that the Kiwis are really missing from the comparison between the 08 side is Jeremy Smith.

 

Smith is New Zealands James Graham , tough.

 

I can't agree with Westwood being evens with Pritchard. Westwood gives away too many penalties for world class footy , and Pritchard has hand and foot work Westwood can only dream of.


Edited by mt smart, 18 November 2013 - 02:15 PM.


#78 Gruff

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:30 PM

The Foran Johnson combo is far superior to the Marshall ball hogging one man band Kiwis

 

I'd argue that till the cows come home . a Marshall team could never construct the fluid back line moves the 2013 Kiwi's are putting together with relative ease.

 

The only player that the Kiwis are really missing from the comparison between the 08 side is Jeremy Smith.

 

Smith is New Zealands James Graham , tough.

 

I can't agree with Westwood being evens with Pritchard. Westwood gives away too many penalties for world class footy , and Pritchard has hand and foot work Westwood can only dream of.

And Westwood puts in the minutes and tackles that Pritchard can only dream of.

 

Westwood has made on average 30 tackles a game to Pritchards 17.  They are roughly the same on offloads and tackle busts and carries, but FP has averages more metres.

 

Different players who both bring different things, but as good as Pritchard is in attack, Westwood is in defence, and vice versa - hence they cancel each other out


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#79 Gruff

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:39 PM

With regards the NZ half back combos this current combo have only had to play one difficult test so far - and they lost comfortably to an Aus outfit with a weaker team than the one that Eng played at the start of the WC.

 

They have had it easy so far - Sat is the whole teams first test since that Aus smashing in the Anzac



#80 Dave T

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:45 PM

 

 

I can't agree with Westwood being evens with Pritchard. Westwood gives away too many penalties for world class footy , and Pritchard has hand and foot work Westwood can only dream of.

perhaps if Pritchard got stuck in in defence he'd risk giving more penalties.

 

Westwood is England's 2nd highest tackler, averaging 24 per game.

 

Pritchard comes in at 16 tackles per match.






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