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Do England have a chance?

england new zealand rlwc2013

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36 replies to this topic

Poll: ENG v NZ (61 member(s) have cast votes)

Can England defeat New Zealand in the RLWC2013 semi-final?

  1. Yes, they can cope with the Kiwis (27 votes [44.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.26%

  2. No chance, this is the end of the road (23 votes [37.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.70%

  3. Too close to call (11 votes [18.03%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.03%

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#21 scrape_goose

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:59 PM

It's probably for another thread but I always maintained that for all his success as a coach at Bradford Nobby Noble had the same trait, and when plan A failed he would revert to plan A, wouldn't he just love having this Kiwi side to coach.

Yep I agree with that, Noble was fortunate enough to inherit a team that had class all the way through it and had been built by Smith. Don't think he considered a plan B, he didn't have to. He hasn't set the world alight elsewhere he has coached. Reminds me of David O'Leary at Leeds Untied, all the work was done for him, so he just said to his players, go play.

 

Widdop would be ideal for us to beat the Kiwi's he exapnds our game, and is quick enough to get away from the ruck and defenders thus creating space for S Burgess running wide, where he has room to take on the Kiwis and offload to the backs. As said elsewhere the key is to tire out Luke in by making him work in defense, that way he's distracted and his dummy half runs will be cut back. Sinfield doesn't have the pace and if we keep coming back into the Kiwi pack we'll get nothing but tired and battered forwards.



#22 Paddsy

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:08 PM

We will smash the kiwis, then run over the kangaroos. This conitiki tour will be taking its toll on both teams



#23 Gruff

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:14 PM

Last time we played NZ we had 2 props, a 2nd row and Widdop on the bench.

 

Barring injury to Widdop I don't think anything will have changed



#24 Spicer

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:32 PM

Of course we have a chance and though I think it will be close I see NZ progressing.

Hope Im wrong obviously but just do not see The Kiwis blowing the chances out wide

as the French did.



#25 Bomballey

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:41 PM

Some good points being raised here.


A few of you have mentioned how important it is for England to maintain their intensity over 80 minutes, but what other weaknesses do you see in the side? Are you happy with Chase and Sinfield as a half-back pairing? Should Gareth Widdop be given a chance? If you were McNamara, what changes would you make ahead of the semi-final?


I will be amazed if SM changes the halves now... Even though he needs to...

I'm covering my potential disappointment with a few quid on NZ - if we lose we will lose it in the halves as we will start with a slow, average hooker type & a mad rascal

#26 Father Ted

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:58 PM

I think England's NRL forwards will step another level against the NRL Kiwis.
With being sat on row K last Saturday the England forwards being so close looked massive.
They are almost as big as the Kiwis but far more mobile. Our pack can get on top of the NZ forwards and win that battle.
Our back three in the backs, Charnley, Tomkins and Hall are excellent and are a real threat to the Kiwis. Trouble is getting the ball out to them.
Sinfield is too slow and Chase is a one trick pony who's one trick hasn't worked for two years.
Watkins only got outside his man once and Charnley scored. A repeat of the earlier try from Tomkins' assist. The centres and outside backs need plenty ball. Sinfield and Chase have proved they can't deliver that.
McNamara's team selection could decide this game.
If Widdop plays alongside Sinfield (who he won't drop) then we have a very good chance.
Should he play Chase again then we're done for.

#27 Crunchers Dad

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 08:01 PM

If we have a chance in this game, we have to stop Luke & Johnson. And the trouble is, I don't think NZ are thinking the same back.
We have the pack to compete, but I think we have to tire their forwards out. Not by running at them, but by kicking deep, often and hopefully a few 40-20's. Turn them around keep them down there and we might have a platform to win.
I need to see you win boys, come on, bring the talent you have and work for 80.

#28 Trojan

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 08:16 PM

The odds only reflect the bets that have been placed. Yesterday's result IMO puts our defeat of Fiji into perspective. Samoa are a really good side, they gave the KIWIS a lot of problems in the second half of their qualifying game. I think there is reason to hope, but obviously everyone will have to stand up and be counted and be on the top of their game. The two Burgess bros have had quiet games for them apart from against Oz. I'm hoping they're saving themselves for NZ. With Graham, the Burgess's and Tomkins in top form, plus Ryan Hall who is effectively an extra back row forward, I think we can trouble them. I don't know who the ref is, but if he's an NRL bod then we'll have problems. Having said that Ashley Klein has been the best of the bunch IMO.

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#29 redjonn

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 08:18 PM

Being someone that wrote off Leeds a few times but they went on to win the GF I wouldn't like to write off England.    Yep, OK NZ will rightly be favourites but England are not that far behind them and hence can win.     Even if it is classed as a Sheffield Eagle CC win type upset...



#30 christopher

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:16 PM

I personally would change the half backs who haven't done anything this tournament. I would also have 4 props in the 17 rather then 4 second rowers.


Do you not think that's a bit harsh, how have the halfbacks 'done nothing'? We have scored 24 trys in 4 games that doesn't happen when your halfbacks 'do nothing' fair enough you may not rate them and you obviously disagree with them being selected which you of course are entitled to that opinion but I feel your going OTT with the denegration.

#31 giwildgo

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:46 AM

It's probably for another thread but I always maintained that for all his success as a coach at Bradford Nobby Noble had the same trait, and when plan A failed he would revert to plan A, wouldn't he just love having this Kiwi side to coach.

Having watched a Noble coached Wigan for a few years I tend to agree. Was always my biggest criticism that he never had a Plan B, when Plan A wasn't working. McNamara is like a homeless man's version of Noble unfortunately.

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#32 GaryO

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:35 AM

Do you not think that's a bit harsh, how have the halfbacks 'done nothing'? We have scored 24 trys in 4 games that doesn't happen when your halfbacks 'do nothing' fair enough you may not rate them and you obviously disagree with them being selected which you of course are entitled to that opinion but I feel your going OTT with the denegration.


No Chris I don't think it's harsh. For the umpteenth time you have stated that we have scored 24 try's and considering it is usually when people bring up the suitabillity of our halfs it seems to me that you are implying that they have been soley responsible for them all. There is a lot of if's and but's on this forum and I would add, IF we had more competent players in those positions i.e. A 6 who had a some kind of understanding and structure with his team mates and a 7 who could at least give the opposition a reason to be cautious with his flair speed and agility to create the gaps never mind go through them then we may have scored 40 try's not 24.
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#33 christopher

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

No Chris I don't think it's harsh. For the umpteenth time you have stated that we have scored 24 try's and considering it is usually when people bring up the suitabillity of our halfs it seems to me that you are implying that they have been soley responsible for them all. There is a lot of if's and but's on this forum and I would add, IF we had more competent players in those positions i.e. A 6 who had a some kind of understanding and structure with his team mates and a 7 who could at least give the opposition a reason to be cautious with his flair speed and agility to create the gaps never mind go through them then we may have scored 40 try's not 24.

I've stated it twice no need for hyperbole.

What I am trying to do is introduce some facts into the debate, it's constantly stated that the halfbacks are giving slow service to the outside backs yet one of our wingers is the leading try scorer and scoring trys is not something which we have struggled to do, even against the number one team in the world.

It's quite clear that no matter what happens in the game on Saturday some people have made up their minds who their scapegoats are. Apart from the game against France where I thought they were both a bit off our halfbacks have not been nowhere near as bad as is made out on here. And the amount of trys we have scored seems to back that up IMO.

So I think stating the halfbacks have 'done nothing' is harsh as that's clearly not the case.

Edited by christopher, 19 November 2013 - 09:49 AM.


#34 7723

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:54 AM

Do you not think that's a bit harsh, how have the halfbacks 'done nothing'? We have scored 24 trys in 4 games that doesn't happen when your halfbacks 'do nothing' fair enough you may not rate them and you obviously disagree with them being selected which you of course are entitled to that opinion but I feel your going OTT with the denegration.

 

 

I don't think it's harsh at all. When you compare our half backs to the NZ and AUS half backs ours haven't done anything. Chase runs round like a headless chicken at times and Sinfield struggles to make a break. I know you have stated we have scored 24 tries but how many assists do our halves have? Sam Tomkins appears to be playing more of a half back role and I think that is taking a lot out of Tomkin's normal running game. I think with better half backs we wouldn't have that problem.



#35 christopher

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:02 AM

I don't think it's harsh at all. When you compare our half backs to the NZ and AUS half backs ours haven't done anything. Chase runs round like a headless chicken at times and Sinfield struggles to make a break. I know you have stated we have scored 24 tries but how many assists do our halves have? Sam Tomkins appears to be playing more of a half back role and I think that is taking a lot out of Tomkin's normal running game. I think with better half backs we wouldn't have that problem.


Well for starters Chase has twice the amount of try assists than any of the Australian halfbacks and Sinfield has the same as them.

We are quite rightly using Tomkins in the attacking line on the fringes and he will of course have a lot of assists because he's a great player, this is not a negative!

Sinfield quite strangely is our top tackler (helped I'm sure by his stint at hooker) he is also only one clean break behinnd Thurston.

You may not think our halves have played to what you want but again saying they have 'done nothing' is IMO both harsh and incorrect.

#36 Joe Whitley

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

I don't think it's harsh at all. When you compare our half backs to the NZ and AUS half backs ours haven't done anything. Chase runs round like a headless chicken at times and Sinfield struggles to make a break. I know you have stated we have scored 24 tries but how many assists do our halves have? Sam Tomkins appears to be playing more of a half back role and I think that is taking a lot out of Tomkin's normal running game. I think with better half backs we wouldn't have that problem.

 

I've never thought about the impact on Sam Tomkins.

 

A quick look at the stats shows before the RLWC2013 started, the full-back had 21 tries in 20 England appearances.

 

He hasn't scored a single point in his four games since. That could suggest your above statement is correct. 


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#37 Joe Whitley

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

Let's discuss the half-back issue in a different thread: http://www.totalrl.c...fback-headache/


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