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The Pope


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#1 ckn

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:34 AM

I wonder what it is with the new Pope that's attracting the frothy mouthed comments I've seen quite a lot in positive articles about him, like this one.  Then there's the nutjobs like Sarah Palin saying she's shocked by his liberalism.

 

As a thorough atheist, I quite like the new Pope.  He's a genuine breath of fresh air in the catholic church.  There was one article I saw about him openly considering the first female Cardinal, it's an easy win for him as you don't need to be an ordained priest to be a Cardinal so he can appoint whoever he sees fit without having to fight through the dross as the protestant church has had to do trying to get female Bishops.


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#2 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:41 AM

I wonder what it is with the new Pope that's attracting the frothy mouthed comments I've seen quite a lot in positive articles about him, like this one.  Then there's the nutjobs like Sarah Palin saying she's shocked by his liberalism.

 

As a thorough atheist, I quite like the new Pope.  He's a genuine breath of fresh air in the catholic church.  There was one article I saw about him openly considering the first female Cardinal, it's an easy win for him as you don't need to be an ordained priest to be a Cardinal so he can appoint whoever he sees fit without having to fight through the dross as the protestant church has had to do trying to get female Bishops.

 

It's an easy win but it creates problems later.  Eventually the female cardinals get together and say Hang on ...


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#3 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:46 AM

Excellent Public relations man


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 18 November 2013 - 11:46 AM.

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#4 ckn

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:49 AM

It's an easy win but it creates problems later.  Eventually the female cardinals get together and say Hang on ...

I think that's rather his point though.  Replace enough of the Princes of the Church with Princesses and you'll disenfranchise the nutjobs so much that when it comes to rolling out female priests that the battle is already won.

 

Same with him requiring that German Bishop who liked his bling to leave his diocese.  A healthy shot across the bows of those who've had it easy under the last couple of Popes while also giving those who left the church because of its abuses a way back in.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#5 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:52 AM

I think that's rather his point though.  Replace enough of the Princes of the Church with Princesses and you'll disenfranchise the nutjobs so much that when it comes to rolling out female priests that the battle is already won.

 

Same with him requiring that German Bishop who liked his bling to leave his diocese.  A healthy shot across the bows of those who've had it easy under the last couple of Popes while also giving those who left the church because of its abuses a way back in.

 

He does still insist on you believing him to be uniquely moved by the spirit of a thrice-divided sky pixie though.


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#6 ckn

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:55 AM

He does still insist on you believing him to be uniquely moved by the spirit of a thrice-divided sky pixie though.

Aye, there is that.  That said, the Dalai Lama thinks he's going to be reborn when he dies yet he's still one of the very few public figures I admire without reservation


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#7 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:33 PM

Aye, there is that.  That said, the Dalai Lama thinks he's going to be reborn when he dies yet he's still one of the very few public figures I admire without reservation

 

There are reasons. genuine ones, to have occasional misgivings about Mr Lama but I see where you're coming from.


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#8 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:58 PM

It's an easy win but it creates problems later.  Eventually the female cardinals get together and say Hang on ...

You say that but they do choose to be  very active members of the Catholic church fully knowing the rules. I'd be surprised if very many of them wanted female priests.



#9 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:05 PM

You say that but they do choose to be  very active members of the Catholic church fully knowing the rules. I'd be surprised if very many of them wanted female priests.

 

It was similar in Anglicanism though.  First, involvement with the church and its associated societies, then ordination of deacons ... then a movement gets going wondering why if they can do all that they can't go further.

 

And, yes, plenty of women within the church at first had no interest in women being priests.  At the time of the votes in the 90s it did seem like most people I spoke to split on inverse gender lines: most men seeing no problem, many women fearing a loss of their unique role.


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#10 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:11 PM

It was similar in Anglicanism though.  First, involvement with the church and its associated societies, then ordination of deacons ... then a movement gets going wondering why if they can do all that they can't go further.

 

And, yes, plenty of women within the church at first had no interest in women being priests.  At the time of the votes in the 90s it did seem like most people I spoke to split on inverse gender lines: most men seeing no problem, many women fearing a loss of their unique role.

Anglicanism has always been rather more diverse and touchy-feely than Catholicism though. Catholicism is far more hierarchical and tradition-based.



#11 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:13 PM

Anglicanism has always been rather more diverse and touchy-feely than Catholicism though. 

 

Certain strains within Anglicanism, definitely.  But within the whole communion there are sections that are far more bound to Catholic tradition (as they see it) than even the Roman Catholics.  Plenty of Anglo-Catholic churches (some accepting women, some not) pray first to the Pope (then the Queen, then the Archbish), without apparently noticing that he regards them as outside the one church.


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#12 RidingPie

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:18 PM

Aye, there is that.  That said, the Dalai Lama thinks he's going to be reborn when he dies yet he's still one of the very few public figures I admire without reservation

 

Whenever I've heard him discuss religion he's sounded very much like an atheist, and I've seen somewhere he's said he has not yet decided whether he is going to be re-incarnated when he dies this time. I do wonder whether he believes it himself any more. 



#13 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:25 PM

Certain strains within Anglicanism, definitely.  But within the whole communion there are sections that are far more bound to Catholic tradition (as they see it) than even the Roman Catholics.  Plenty of Anglo-Catholic churches (some accepting women, some not) pray first to the Pope (then the Queen, then the Archbish), without apparently noticing that he regards them as outside the one church.

They are very much the minority though (and quite a few have left the Anglican church over the issue of female priests).

 

Protestant tradition is largely that of a direct relationship with God and therefore more flexibility in individual interpretation (hence a rugby league like tendancy to form break-away movements), the church is important but not everything. Catholic teaching is that you need priests, saints etc as a vehicle for interacting with God and hence the church is everything.

 

The teaching is along the lines of "God wanted male priests, we don't really understand why but it's God's will and therefore we must follow it".



#14 JohnM

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:37 PM

speaking to my mates wife last week..she is an Italian non-Catholic  with a large family in eastern Italy..and even amongst non-Catholics, the new lad is winning lots and lots of supporters



#15 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:44 PM

speaking to my mates wife last week..she is an Italian non-Catholic  with a large family in eastern Italy..and even amongst non-Catholics, the new lad is winning lots and lots of supporters

No doubt about that. I was in Italy when he was appointed. Pretty much all Italians, religious or not, became admirers of the pope within a couple of weeks.

 

The whole "austerity pope" thing goes down very well in contrast to Italian politicians who are a total shambles.



#16 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:55 PM

They are very much the minority though (and quite a few have left the Anglican church over the issue of female priests).

 

Not really.  Anglicanism is more a Catholic tradition than a Protestant one - it does, after all, have saints, the episcopacy, sacraments.  

 

Those leaving over women priests are high-profile rather than numerous.


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#17 Wolford6

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 03:09 PM

I'm a non Methodist. I can't do with holier-than-thou non-Anglicans and non-Catholics.

;)

 

However, I've always had a thing about Catholic women.

B)


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#18 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:11 PM

Not really.  Anglicanism is more a Catholic tradition than a Protestant one - it does, after all, have saints, the episcopacy, sacraments.  

 

Those leaving over women priests are high-profile rather than numerous.

a pedant writes

protestantism is catholic

 

you mean roman catholic

 

if something is catholic it is world wide.


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#19 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:15 PM

Not really.  Anglicanism is more a Catholic tradition than a Protestant one - it does, after all, have saints, the episcopacy, sacraments.  

 

Those leaving over women priests are high-profile rather than numerous.

It has those things as a historical legacy rather than an integral part of the church though.

 

The Church of England has a secular head (the Queen de jure, the PM de facto). That makes it quite a different beast from the Catholic church which literally runs its own country.

 

One is an intergral part of an otherwise secular country and tends to reflect the ebb and flow of that society and the other stands above mere nations as a separate but international entity. They even have their own UN seat.

 

It's possible for the Catholic church to change but it's far less likely to do so than the Anglican church.

 

edit: and the highest profile defection of Anglican to Catholic over the ordination of women was a woman! I'm not sure that female Catholics - the very devout ones - necessarily have very different opinions from the Pope.

 

One other difference between the two churches is that the Catholic church has always had a significant role for women - nuns - something that Protestant churches don't have.


Edited by Northern Sol, 18 November 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#20 GeordieSaint

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:37 PM

Really good quote in the Palin article:

 

Her statements were slammed by some on social media. Radio 4 presenter Tom Sutcliffe summed it up on Twitter as: “Christianist baffled by an encounter with Christianity.”

Another wrote: “If Sarah Palin's this shocked by Pope Francis, she'll be catatonic when she finally gets round to reading about Jesus in the New Testament.”

 

:D


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