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McNamara's halfback headache

rangi chase new zealand rugby league rlwc2013 england

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Poll: McNamara's half-back headache (46 member(s) have cast votes)

Who should England coach Steve McNamara select at 6 and 7 to play against New Zealand on Saturday?

  1. Chase and Sinfield - it's too late to make big changes like this (10 votes [21.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.74%

  2. Widdop and Sinfield - Widdop is more experienced against this opposition (36 votes [78.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 78.26%

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#21 ehbandit

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:56 PM

burrow and widdop, wouldn't have chase or sinfield in the side. stats do not show everything, but according to the SL stats sinfield is not in the top ten on most measures, apart from errors! rangi is also in the top ten for errors. must be in for his kicking game, er nope, not in the top ten for 40/20s. must be for his average metres gained, er no (3.8 m?). must have a high tackle rate, not particularly. must be cos he is the best player at leeds, er no.

Edited by ehbandit, 19 November 2013 - 02:05 PM.


#22 christopher

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 02:46 PM

Of course stats don't give the total picture but they can be useful. SL stats mean jack all in this context as the players are playing in different teams and in total different circumstances.

I've posted this before but Chase has twice the amount of try assists than any of the Australian halfbacks and Sinfield has the same as them, of course this doesn't give you the whole story but wouldn't you say that goes against the common them that is posted on here that neither of our half backs create enough?

#23 scrape_goose

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:09 PM

Of course stats don't give the total picture but they can be useful. SL stats mean jack all in this context as the players are playing in different teams and in total different circumstances.

I've posted this before but Chase has twice the amount of try assists than any of the Australian halfbacks and Sinfield has the same as them, of course this doesn't give you the whole story but wouldn't you say that goes against the common them that is posted on here that neither of our half backs create enough?

Of course stats don't give the total picture!



#24 christopher

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:11 PM

Of course stats don't give the total picture!


Of course.

#25 scrape_goose

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:15 PM

Watching your country's halfbacks play to the required standard and look like they might offer top class opposition a problem does. Are our two halfbacks in teh same class as NZ and Aus halfbacks from the games you have watched? In my opinion thier is a massive gulf in class and the weak links of the team. That is of course my opinion.



#26 Joe Whitley

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:26 PM

A lot of contrasting views here. 

 

I have had a long think about this. To my mind, Chase has run out of chances at 6 and Sinfield doesn't seem to be firing on all cylinders at scrum-half. I think dropping Chase would help the team, but leaving Sinfield out altogether rids the team of experience and a superb right boot.

 

This might ruffle a few feathers but if I were McNamara right now, facing the prospect of a thumping against the Kiwis, I would drop Chase, put Widdop at 6 and Burrow at 7. I'd then relegate O'Loughlin to the bench (I know, he's brilliant, but hear me out) and stick Sinfield at loose forward, where I think he is most effective.

 

This way you inject new life into the side through two clever and fast halfbacks, get rid of the dead wood (I rate Chase highly but let's face it, he's just not in form) but keep hold of one of your most experienced forwards and goal-kickers. There's nothing to say O'Loughlin couldn't come off the bench as an impact player later in the game when McIlorum/Roby is tired and Sinfield switches to hooker.


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#27 7723

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:32 PM

A lot of contrasting views here. 

 

I have had a long think about this. To my mind, Chase has run out of chances at 6 and Sinfield doesn't seem to be firing on all cylinders at scrum-half. I think dropping Chase would help the team, but leaving Sinfield out altogether rids the team of experience and a superb right boot.

 

This might ruffle a few feathers but if I were McNamara right now, facing the prospect of a thumping against the Kiwis, I would drop Chase, put Widdop at 6 and Burrow at 7. I'd then relegate O'Loughlin to the bench (I know, he's brilliant, but hear me out) and stick Sinfield at loose forward, where I think he is most effective.

 

This way you inject new life into the side through two clever and fast halfbacks, get rid of the dead wood (I rate Chase highly but let's face it, he's just not in form) but keep hold of one of your most experienced forwards and goal-kickers. There's nothing to say O'Loughlin couldn't come off the bench as an impact player later in the game when McIlorum/Roby is tired and Sinfield switches to hooker.

 

To have Sinfield in just for goal kicking is ridiculous. To take O'Loughlin out the team to accommodate Sinfield is even more ridiculous. Widdop is very capable of kicking goals and general on the field kicking. I don't think Sinfields kicking has been top class this world cup and I would say both Chase and Tomkins have been better.



#28 christopher

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:34 PM

Watching your country's halfbacks play to the required standard and look like they might offer top class opposition a problem does. Are our two halfbacks in teh same class as NZ and Aus halfbacks from the games you have watched? In my opinion thier is a massive gulf in class and the weak links of the team. That is of course my opinion.


I think they've played great - in patches, but in some respects the same can be said of the Aussies and NZ halfbacks. For example Cooper Cronk was terrible in the last 40 minutes he played and not much better in the previous 40. He's still a quality player though.

Do I think we have the best halfbacks in the comp, no, the Australian halfbacks are the best in the world. Do I think we can win the WC with our half backs, yes I do because I think we have the team to knock both NZ and Aus over in a one off game, as is shown our halfbacks are perfectly capable at producing trys for the outside backs and in Tomkins we have an extra pivot who creates a hell of a lot of trys.

#29 Joe Whitley

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

burrow and widdop, wouldn't have chase or sinfield in the side. stats do not show everything, but according to the SL stats sinfield is not in the top ten on most measures, apart from errors! rangi is also in the top ten for errors. must be in for his kicking game, er nope, not in the top ten for 40/20s. must be for his average metres gained, er no (3.8 m?). must have a high tackle rate, not particularly. must be cos he is the best player at leeds, er no.

 

Clearly you haven't got a copy of the new League Express yearbook! In the Opta stats section, it shows Sinfield was in the top five for many categories at the Rhinos:

 

Tackles: 4th (571)

Offloads: 4th (34)

Try assists: T2 (10)

Marker tackles: 5th (100)

Carries: 3rd (447)

 

The 'total Opta index', a basic measure of the all-round performance of a player, ranks him second in the Rhinos team (with a rating of 13494) behind Zak Hardaker (13503). Only three other players in Super League rated higher than those two (Sam Tomkins 18629, Danny Brough 14716, and Danny Houghton 14258). So according to the official stats, Sinfield is the second best player at the Rhinos and the fifth best in Super League. 

 

 

As you all rightly say, though, stats don't always paint a full picture.

 

 

For example, Rangi Chase's stats were hard to argue with last season. He assisted five more tries than anyone else (35), offloaded five times more than anyone else (61), bust 14 more tackles than the nearest competitor, and carried the ball in 150 times more than the rest of SL.


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#30 Joe Whitley

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:51 PM

To have Sinfield in just for goal kicking is ridiculous. To take O'Loughlin out the team to accommodate Sinfield is even more ridiculous. Widdop is very capable of kicking goals and general on the field kicking. I don't think Sinfields kicking has been top class this world cup and I would say both Chase and Tomkins have been better.

I didn't say just for goal-kicking. He's probably the most experienced player in the side. The likes of G Burgess, T Burgess, and Farrell need the guidance. Oh, and don't forget he's the captain! 


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#31 7723

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 04:11 PM

I didn't say just for goal-kicking. He's probably the most experienced player in the side. The likes of G Burgess, T Burgess, and Farrell need the guidance. Oh, and don't forget he's the captain! 

 

There are many other players out there who can offer guidance, O'Loughlin, S. Burgess, Graham etc.



#32 Trojan

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 04:49 PM

Why Rangi Chase shouldn't play

"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#33 Joe Whitley

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:13 PM

Why Rangi Chase shouldn't play

How long was he banned for that?


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#34 RSN

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

Of course stats don't give the total picture but they can be useful. SL stats mean jack all in this context as the players are playing in different teams and in total different circumstances.

I've posted this before but Chase has twice the amount of try assists than any of the Australian halfbacks and Sinfield has the same as them, of course this doesn't give you the whole story but wouldn't you say that goes against the common them that is posted on here that neither of our half backs create enough?


Chase has made more errors this tournament than Try assists, clean breaks and tries scored put together.

That says a lot in my opinion.

#35 RSN

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:23 PM

How long was he banned for that?


Not long enough.

#36 bedlam breakout

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:10 PM

burrow and widdop should have been given a chance together against france, too late now, wouldn't be surprised if chase loses the game for England with stupid errors and a lack of discipline


the inside of a 3star halex table tennis ball smells much like you'd expect it to.

#37 ehbandit

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:59 PM

Clearly you haven't got a copy of the new League Express yearbook! In the Opta stats section, it shows Sinfield was in the top five for many categories at the Rhinos:

Tackles: 4th (571)
Offloads: 4th (34)
Try assists: T2 (10)
Marker tackles: 5th (100)
Carries: 3rd (447)

The 'total Opta index', a basic measure of the all-round performance of a player, ranks him second in the Rhinos team (with a rating of 13494) behind Zak Hardaker (13503). Only three other players in Super League rated higher than those two (Sam Tomkins 18629, Danny Brough 14716, and Danny Houghton 14258). So according to the official stats, Sinfield is the second best player at the Rhinos and the fifth best in Super League.


As you all rightly say, though, stats don't always paint a full picture.


For example, Rangi Chase's stats were hard to argue with last season. He assisted five more tries than anyone else (35), offloaded five times more than anyone else (61), bust 14 more tackles than the nearest competitor, and carried the ball in 150 times more than the rest of SL.

in the top 5 at Leeds, not the whole of super league. as for rangi,
where the offloads in the correct position/time? would he have been better keeping hold of the ball? when he carried the ball was that the correct play? is a carry counted when you are tackled with the ball? is an offload counted if you drop the ball, but it travels back? as I've said stats don't show everything. watching our halves versus NZ or Australia's make me wonder which would I rather have? I can tell you which ones I would not have!

Edited by ehbandit, 19 November 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#38 Larry the Leit

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:09 PM

in the top 5 at Leeds, not the whole of super league. as for rangi,
where the offloads in the correct position/time? would he have been better keeping hold of the ball? when he carried the ball was that the correct play? is a carry counted when you are tackled with the ball? is an offload counted if you drop the ball, but it travels back? as I've said stats don't show everything. watching our halves versus NZ or Australia's make me wonder which would I rather have? I can tell you which ones I would not have!


I think you highlight well the worthlessness of these kind of stats.

#39 Bomballey

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:18 AM

A lot of contrasting views here.

I have had a long think about this. To my mind, Chase has run out of chances at 6 and Sinfield doesn't seem to be firing on all cylinders at scrum-half. I think dropping Chase would help the team, but leaving Sinfield out altogether rids the team of experience and a superb right boot.

This might ruffle a few feathers but if I were McNamara right now, facing the prospect of a thumping against the Kiwis, I would drop Chase, put Widdop at 6 and Burrow at 7. I'd then relegate O'Loughlin to the bench (I know, he's brilliant, but hear me out) and stick Sinfield at loose forward, where I think he is most effective.

This way you inject new life into the side through two clever and fast halfbacks, get rid of the dead wood (I rate Chase highly but let's face it, he's just not in form) but keep hold of one of your most experienced forwards and goal-kickers. There's nothing to say O'Loughlin couldn't come off the bench as an impact player later in the game when McIlorum/Roby is tired and Sinfield switches to hooker.


Some interesting thoughts but ,again, we are trying to find a place for Sinfield when there are better players in every position.

I will never understand it

#40 roughyedspud

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:24 AM

Mcnamara doesn't have a halfback headache...

 

 

he knows,and has known for 3 years,who his halfback pairing is.....sinfield & chase...

 

 

 

so will everyone please get over it!


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