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Ban it, block it, censor it


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#21 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:40 PM

That's the problem though.  Unless you ban people from the internet entirely and shut down all the ISPs then you're not going to stop it.  I can guarantee you that the first time you put a block out there at ISP level that your kids will be told by their friends at school about proxies, VPNs and darknet/ToR, with many of them utterly untrackable except in the most extreme circumstances, and even then it's not guaranteed.

 

Those are the things that are used now by people from those just paranoid about their privacy through to the most extreme edge of criminality out there.  They know it's safe and almost unbreakable.

 

For those things the ISP will ban, how will they do it?  Based on website addresses?  It takes seconds to set up a new one.  Who says a website goes on the list?  What if a politician decides that the BNP website is unsafe for kids?  Block that too?  What if then the next step is to completely ban these things for everyone?

 

Look at China, it's paranoid to the extreme about what its citizens can see on the internet but they've all bar given up trying to censor things because the availability of the bypass technologies are so ubiquitous that anyone who needs to use them can get them.  It's not rocket science to get around virtually any ISP level blocking tools.

 

That's why I'm quite happy with things as they stand.  It puts responsibility on the parents to monitor their kids' internet usage.  What kid would go to his friends and tell them that his mummy and daddy had put child protection software on their computers?  If you can afford to buy a computer then you can afford to buy this software and learn how to use it.

 

My friend allows his daughter unrestricted access to whatever she wants on the internet but has the computer configured so she can't delete browsing history, he tells her he reads this once a week and checks her emails at the same time.  He has her messenger set up to verbosely duplicate messages received or sent on her iPhone on his computer.  She grumbled about how unfair it was but was bluntly told that it was her choice if she didn't want to use them.  He told me he actually randomly scans her browser history once a month or so when he remembers but the threat of it alone is enough to bluntly force good behaviour.  Also, as he has the computer locked down he can see any bypass tools she'd install or such websites visited, he also has the privacy mode disabled on the computer's browsers.

Most Chinese people don't use facebook. A lot of them have the skills to get around the "great firewall of China" but there is no particular point in doing so when there is an ap that is equivalent to facebook and isn't blocked.



#22 Tiny Tim

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

It probably would but then most people don't have the literacy / ICT skills to be able to follow this kind of "tip". If they did then nobody would earn a living fixing computers. 

 

Somebody would probably post a guide on Youtube showing you step by step how to do it....or Craig might tell you if you asked nicely. 

 

No disrespect to the IT folk but I would imagine that it's not rocket science.


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#23 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:13 PM

Somebody would probably post a guide on Youtube showing you step by step how to do it....or Craig might tell you if you asked nicely. 

 

No disrespect to the IT folk but I would imagine that it's not rocket science.

It probably isn't and those youtube videos probably already exist. But most people don't know about "How to" videos on youtube.



#24 Larry the Leit

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:40 PM

People simply don't think to use google (or other search engine) to answer the questions that they have. I used to work for a software house in a non-technical role, and none of the geeks writing code could kid me on anything. Part of being a clever geek seems to be the desire and will to share that cleverness with the world. The only thing that is lacking in people is the lateral thought to work to actually recognise the power of the web to solve their "not so unique problem" but how to actually thinking about seeking out a source that will help them solve their computer problems. Having the skills to press the keys in the right order should be a given, unless you're like L'Ang,

As for the pornography issue. The internet is no different to the days of magazines. Those that want to see and consume pornography will find a way to do so, either by stealing the magazines, or acquiring them by other more devious means. Likewise with the internet. The web hasn't made teenage boys and the like want to access it, but it has made it easier. I don't know whether that's a bad thing or not (that try can access what they want more easily), but the clock will not be rolled back whatever any government may claim.

There are clear issues with pornography, in the way it shapes and distorts young minds as to what is normal sexual behaviour and the role of both men and women in sex, but I don't see how a ban will address this issue in any way. On another thread Mistress Marlow posted a video about this which I thought was illustrative of some of the problems with pornography.

Edited by Larry the Leit, 20 November 2013 - 06:47 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#25 Johnoco

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:23 PM

Larry, no way, absolutely no way, is Internet porn the same as days gone by. The only way you could view porn when I was growing up was either find a magazine in the bushes, find an adults stash maybe or for the better off, videos usually from abroad.

On top of this, most of it was in retrospect, pretty tame. The ease with which anyone can view extreme porn now disturbs me. Who knows what effect it will have on developing minds?
I am not some moral guardian, I don't care what consenting *adults* get up to, but think the risk pornography presents to immature minds is a dangerous one. Just look on twitter or tumblr etc

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#26 Larry the Leit

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

You mistake my meaning. I'm not saying that the content is the same, I suspect it's very different. I'll certainly accept your view on this as I suspect it is far better researched than my own.

I'm just saying that if a kid wants to look at porn then they will find their way around he ban, just as they would have found their way around the age restrictions in the past.

Any ban is futile. That's my point.

Edited by Larry the Leit, 20 November 2013 - 06:57 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#27 Johnoco

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:07 PM

Of course someone could find a way round it but the less people exposed to it the better so it's far from futile.

And the point is that we aren't talking about a lad trying to sneak a look at a pair of thruppeny bits like in days of yore. We are talking pretty strong content that can be accessed by anyone anytime. If I want to check out some porn, I would have no problem having to opt in, I don't think it is such a big deal. (Well, apart from the fact that I think porn is getting out of control)

Edited by Johnoco, 21 November 2013 - 04:11 PM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#28 Griff9of13

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:28 PM

If I had kids there's no way they would have unrestricted and unobserved access to the internet. There are plenty of tools to help out there (and lots built into Windows etc OSs) and if you don't have the skills to use them you can always make sure your kids use their PCs when you are around to glance over their shoulder. 


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#29 Larry the Leit

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:44 PM

Agree with Griff.  The best and only way to control what children have access to is to have the Mac/PC on a whacking great screen in a communal room.  Everything else is pointless.


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#30 Johnoco

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:57 PM

If I had kids there's no way they would have unrestricted and unobserved access to the internet. There are plenty of tools to help out there (and lots built into Windows etc OSs) and if you don't have the skills to use them you can always make sure your kids use their PCs when you are around to glance over their shoulder.

That's totally impractical and besides, where does trust come into it? You can't raise your kids watching them 24/7, and nor should you. There will come a time when they want to do things on their own or with a friend (s). You can't just say no to everything that you cannot personally monitor.

But knowing at least that you, and the persons house they were playing at had opted out of receiving certain things would be a big help.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#31 Larry the Leit

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:00 PM

That's totally impractical and besides, where does trust come into it? You can't raise your kids watching them 24/7, and nor should you. There will come a time when they want to do things on their own or with a friend (s). You can't just say no to everything that you cannot personally monitor.

But knowing at least that you, and the persons house they were playing at had opted out of receiving certain things would be a big help.

 

I can see the point here.  However I would ask where your own trust would come in?  In signing up to the censorship are you not stating "I don't trust you"?

 

My kids aren't at the age where this is an issue, however no doubt it'll be something that I have to think about.

 

There must be people on here with teenage kids, what are their views?


Edited by Larry the Leit, 21 November 2013 - 05:02 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#32 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

I can see the point here.  However I would ask where your own trust would come in?  In signing up to the censorship are you not stating "I don't trust you"?

 

You can't trust teenage boys not to look at porn. It's pretty much hard wired into blokes, particularly hormonal ones to like porn. Your teen will look at it whether you trust them or not.

 

The difference is that the type of porn and the amount of it is to some extent controllable. 



#33 Johnoco

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:30 PM

I can see the point here. However I would ask where your own trust would come in? In signing up to the censorship are you not stating "I don't trust you"?

My kids aren't at the age where this is an issue, however no doubt it'll be something that I have to think about.

There must be people on here with teenage kids, what are their views?

But theres trust and also common sense. My eldest is 24. Next is 17 and I warned him a) that porn was unacceptable from a moral view point (ie respect to women angle) and b ) I would kick his ass if I found anything untoward. My daughter is 12 and knows that whatever she does is subject to monitoring all the time from me and her mum. She is not allowed anything like kik or chat apps, most of which are just a perverts carte blanche.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#34 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:14 PM

I steer clear from all of it. I know that sounds holier than thou but looking at pics or vids that may or may not be illegal isn't for me.
 
I wouldn't even know what is or isn't illegal in the rudey-dudey world of the internet!


If you stick to granny porn your safe

#35 Larry the Leit

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:38 AM

If you stick to granny porn your safe

 

You should think about grammar porn.


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#36 Wolford6

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:38 AM

That could warrant a sentence.


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#37 Johnoco

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 03:49 PM

Look at the case in the news re: Ian Watkins. That simply couldn't have happened in the past (encouraging child abuse via webcam). This doesn't mean webcams are a bad thing but if it meant registering or identifying myself before talking to Auntie Vera in NZ, then I think it is a small price to pay if it makes life harder for such vermin. Yes, the more determined will find a way round it etc etc


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#38 SE4Wire

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:14 PM

The problem I have is the one with the general one of prohibition. It hands the control over to the black market.

Young people are resourceful and will find ways around a simple ban (as mentioned, IP addresses, torrents, TOR etc). This then in order to access things they'll be accessing "dark corners" of the internet. Here more extreme things will be available just as easily as "pictures of boobies" potentially putting kids more at risk and increasing the risk of more unsavoury material being shared.

#39 Johnoco

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:47 PM

Sorry to break the news mate but paedophilia is not exactly mainstream, it is already (by its very nature) underground.
You would not have a quick look, like perhaps you might do at certain things out of curiosity or whatever, it is a horrible unnatural practice that attracts a certain type of person only.
Anyone looking for a quick flash of knockers or whatever will not be trawling the Internet for it.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#40 SE4Wire

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:09 PM

Yeah that's my point. If you have to go looking underground for the more "mainstream" pornography you may well be looking in the same place as the stuff that is completely abhorrent. There is then a risk as kids go looking in these parts for naked ladies they come across this stuff and they see it as equivalent.

I'm always worried about the law of unintended consequences.

Edited by SE4Wire, 27 November 2013 - 08:10 PM.





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