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Playing the blame game

rlwc2013 england new zealand kevin sinfield ryan hall george burgess wembley

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#21 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:29 PM

Fine, discuss mistakes away on this and all the other threads.

 

The negative threads are popular so lets do a few more. 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#22 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:29 PM

Yes. Of course. Just don't expect a sympathetic hearing. For each mistake an English player made, a Kiwis player made one too. Look at the big picture.

But what has that got to do with it?

 

We don't discuss enough RL action on here and when people try they get moaned at. The match thread was the same, there as a feeling that you couldn't say anything slightly critical as the players were heroic.

 

Surely the post-mortem is part of the fun? The debate about whether Sinfield should have rammed the ball into touch, or Hall should have held his wing position, etc. 



#23 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:31 PM

Fine, discuss mistakes away on this and all the other threads.

 

The negative threads are popular so lets do a few more. 

We lost a game - isn't it natural to look at turning points in the game?

 

I haven't heard anybody say anything negative about the match, it was completely brilliant, I'm not sure why some people want to censor mention of poor play or errors.



#24 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:31 PM

I was simply numb at the hooter yesterday. Part of that was that there was no one to blame. None of the players, not the coach, the weather, not even the ref. Things happen.

As heartbreaking as it was yesterday, and watching it on Sky+ this morning didn't help my mood, we gave our all and just, just came up short.

#25 amh

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:33 PM

The team were not good enough on the day to finish the opposition off

 

The blaming of individuals gets right on my nerves

 

They were a hell of a lot closer to beating them than I ever imagined or gave them credit for

 

I am to blame for not getting 100% behind the team...perhaps that puts doubt in their minds? As it probably does in my own team Leigh, when I fail to attend or back them when they are down


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#26 walter sobchak

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:42 PM

Exactly. I was laid in bed last night reliving every pass!


Lucky you! I wish I was laid in bed last night reliving every pass, could have done with that to lift my spirits(sort of speak).

#27 jpmc

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:48 PM

Looking for reasons to criticise any individual after that game is odd in the extreme imo.
There were so many moment that could have/would have changed the game for both teams,its just the way it goes when you have two equally matched teams.
If theres one thing i would have changed during the first half for England,'and i wrote it on twitter at the time,is, when we got a penalty and took the two, i said we should be running this,we've got them on the rack, and i just keep going back to that moment now.

#28 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:51 PM

Looking for reasons to criticise any individual after that game is odd in the extreme imo.
There were so many moment that could have/would have changed the game for both teams,its just the way it goes when you have two equally matched teams.
If theres one thing i would have changed during the first half for England,'and i wrote it on twitter at the time,is, when we got a penalty and took the two, i said we should be running this,we've got them on the rack, and i just keep going back to that moment now.

But who is looking for reasons to criticise an individual?

 

In fact your last line is exactly the kind of point we should be discussing, but are being moaned at because it is negative. I;d love to debate the penalty point with you, but I better not!



#29 Wjct

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:27 PM

No individuals are to blame.

 

Collectively, indiscipline cost england.

 

Specifically either side of half time when england went from being 8-0 up to 14-8 behind, 4 points coming from penalty goals.

 

Some penalties you can't avoid (the one in the first 7 minutes against O'Loughlin for a steel when simply making the tackle....just LOL) but the one later in second half when he clearly reefed it in front of the ref was kamikarze, widdop's obstruction again right in front of the ref and not required...we all know about the high shot at the end.



#30 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:37 PM

Personally I think the first 30 minutes when we had much of the play, we just weren't sharp enough. Strangely I thought our wingers were slightly off their game yesterday, and it is very rare we can say that. Our strike players didn't finish off some breaks like we have become used to.

 

Not quite sharp enough in attack.



#31 Joe Whitley

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:46 PM

I was simply numb at the hooter yesterday. Part of that was that there was no one to blame. None of the players, not the coach, the weather, not even the ref. Things happen.

As heartbreaking as it was yesterday, and watching it on Sky+ this morning didn't help my mood, we gave our all and just, just came up short.

 

You watched it again, mate? I deleted it from my box almost immediately. Don't want to re-open that wound!


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#32 Joe Whitley

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:47 PM

Personally I think the first 30 minutes when we had much of the play, we just weren't sharp enough. Strangely I thought our wingers were slightly off their game yesterday, and it is very rare we can say that. Our strike players didn't finish off some breaks like we have become used to.

 

Not quite sharp enough in attack.

 

I agree Dave. Ryan Hall didn't seem himself, did he? I have been a critic of Kallum Watkins throughout the campaign so far, but I thought he was very dangerous.


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#33 Joe Whitley

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:49 PM

No individuals are to blame.

 

Collectively, indiscipline cost england.

 

Specifically either side of half time when england went from being 8-0 up to 14-8 behind, 4 points coming from penalty goals.

 

Some penalties you can't avoid (the one in the first 7 minutes against O'Loughlin for a steel when simply making the tackle....just LOL) but the one later in second half when he clearly reefed it in front of the ref was kamikarze, widdop's obstruction again right in front of the ref and not required...we all know about the high shot at the end.

 

I totally agree. What can we do to improve that, though? You'd think O'Loughlin with all his experience wouldn't make that sort of error. A knock-on, fair enough - we're all human - but conceding costly penalties in front of the ref is pretty poor!


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#34 Joe Whitley

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:50 PM

Looking for reasons to criticise any individual after that game is odd in the extreme imo.
There were so many moment that could have/would have changed the game for both teams,its just the way it goes when you have two equally matched teams.
If theres one thing i would have changed during the first half for England,'and i wrote it on twitter at the time,is, when we got a penalty and took the two, i said we should be running this,we've got them on the rack, and i just keep going back to that moment now.

 

Couldn't agree more with that last point. I suppose it's easier said than done though, especially when NZ were taking the two at almost every opportunity. Quite a brave move when points are up for grabs.


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#35 The Dude

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:53 PM

England's cruel World Cup exit yesterday nearly brought me to tears (no lie, it's the worst I've felt since Gareth Southgate missed that penalty in Euro '96), and like any other invested fan I was left thinking what might have been.

 

On my Twitter feed, though, I noticed a lot of people trying to assign blame. I am interested to hear what you all think of the following three incidents that could have potentially changed the outcome of the game. Personally, I think all three were 'just one of those things' and wouldn't like to single out anyone for losing the match. It was seriously unfortunate and not what any of the team deserved. 

 

Item #1

George Burgess' late high tackle

Was it careless and stupid or simply a product of the lad working himself to the bone and being too tired to do anything else?

 

Item #2 

Kevin Sinfield's charge off the line

Did it leave a massive gap for Johnson to score or was it a necessity as they were extremely vulnerable anyway?

 

Item #3

Ryan Hall's interception-fumble

Should he have taken it cleanly or left it altogether? Did it make a difference?

 

Blame is too harsh a word after the heroics of yesterday by all the players.

 

But I haven't heard anyone mention a small detail that could have altered the outcome. 

 

Interestingly, before the Fiji v Samoa match at HJ I attended a QA with Freddy Fittler answering questions, and one was who he thought would win the RLWC and why.  He argued there was very little between the 3 teams but what he considered to be an advantage for Australia was the kicking game of Cooper Cronk and  JT.  As he said these guys always nail the right kick at the right time.  I thought about how prophetic this was when NZ got possession for the last set of the match when I was screaming for the ball to be kicked into touch.

 

On about 78:30 England got to the last tackle on just about the 1/2 way and, for me, Sinfield chose the wrong kick option.  The ball should have been in to touch on the right of the pitch or kicked dead in goal.  A scrum would have wasted 20 seconds, it would also have allowed England to get some air in the lungs and to gather thoughts for a final minute.  In my opinion if he takes the correct kick option the kiwis wouldn't even have had a full set of 6 to score.  I think CC/JT would have nailed this kick had Australia been in this position.

On such things to games get away.



#36 Aucks Warriors

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:53 PM

I don't blame anyone from the England team for the loss but that was a schoolboy error or a brain explosion from Sinfield's to shot up that quick and not making the tackle.



#37 jpmc

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:54 PM

But who is looking for reasons to criticise an individual?
 
In fact your last line is exactly the kind of point we should be discussing, but are being moaned at because it is negative. I;d love to debate the penalty point with you, but I better not!


Perhaps its just the cynic in me that thinks,once a thread 'like this one' is opened,it denigrates into a thread were some posters see another opportunity to have a go at players from other clubs that they dont like.

Would you have taken the two?

#38 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:57 PM

Perhaps its just the cynic in me that thinks,once a thread 'like this one' is opened,it denigrates into a thread were some posters see another opportunity to have a go at players from other clubs that they dont like.

Would you have taken the two?

I was ok with the two when they took it as we had the 6 point lead. We had passed up on another 2 points (from a distance) so I don't think we were playing negatively so I had no issue with it.

In general I'm a believer of running the penalties, my team (Wire) do it and it often works for us, but when NZ won due to penalties it is hard to say taking 2 is the wrong thing to do as it won it for them!



#39 Rioman

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:00 PM

No blame for anyone from me. Those lads gave everything they had. You win as a team and you lose as a team. One of the most exciting games it has been my pleasure to watch in my forty years of watching RL.

What won it for NZ was a fantastic piece of skill and athletiscism from the NZ player to keep the ball alive when to all the world it looked like the ball was going out.

#40 gavin7094

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:10 PM

England's cruel World Cup exit yesterday nearly brought me to tears (no lie, it's the worst I've felt since Gareth Southgate missed that penalty in Euro '96), and like any other invested fan I was left thinking what might have been.
 
On my Twitter feed, though, I noticed a lot of people trying to assign blame. I am interested to hear what you all think of the following three incidents that could have potentially changed the outcome of the game. Personally, I think all three were 'just one of those things' and wouldn't like to single out anyone for losing the match. It was seriously unfortunate and not what any of the team deserved. 
 
Item #1
George Burgess' late high tackle
Was it careless and stupid or simply a product of the lad working himself to the bone and being too tired to do anything else?
 
Item #2 
Kevin Sinfield's charge off the line
Did it leave a massive gap for Johnson to score or was it a necessity as they were extremely vulnerable anyway?
 
Item #3
Ryan Hall's interception-fumble
Should he have taken it cleanly or left it altogether? Did it make a difference?


A. Not either. Players aren't robots and sometimes make mistakes. Very good players make fewer, but they still make them. Suppose NZ knocked on on the first possession straight afterwards? No-one would have remembered the penalty at all.
B. They'd likely have scored anyway. If he'd made the tackle, we'd have won.
C. Ditto. If he'd missed it, they were in. If he'd caught it...

Blame necessitates hindsight, which none of those players had access to.

Surely what we want from a World Cup is that the best team win it, the best 2 contest the final, the bet 4 contest the semi- finals etc. We got exactly that. NZ and England are 2 quite evenly matched sides but NZ are probably slightly better overall, as reflected in the RLIF rankings, with Australia way out in front. Playing at Wembley maybe evened it out a bit more. Our kicking game wasn't great yesterday, just lots of fairly aimless up and unders. Maybe that was the difference.
Funnily, though, at no point yesterday did either I or my girlfriend think we would win. Even in those last few frantic minutes we both thought NZ would score and pinch it. The difference between the merely good and the simply great is that the great can do it when it really matters. NZ did. England could not.
Let's not forget that England have had a very mediocre tournament. A shock loss to Italy pre-tournament, a fairly routine loss to Australia, 3 good 20 minute spells against lesser opposition amid some very average stuff and then yesterday's loss. Won 3, lost 3. Hardly WC winning potential.





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