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Playing the blame game

rlwc2013 england new zealand kevin sinfield ryan hall george burgess wembley

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#61 Northern Eel

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:29 PM

Have a look at Goodwin's tiny knock-on at 78:42 mins. If that had've been picked up, this thread wouldn't have been required.....

You didn't see it, did you? Go on, see for yourself and let me know what you think!;

#62 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

I tend to agree with Wjct. On TV, there was a clear 4 on 3 overlap. G. Burgess was shot and I doubt he would have been able to cover in defence.

 

When FPN makes the pass from dummy-half, the ball takes ages to reach Johnson. He then just sidesteps Sinfield, accelerates, sidesteps Burgess and scores.

 

My point is, I think either way NZ scores. One can't diminish the brilliance of a player at a key moment of game by blaming Sinfield or any other player. They all made a decision based on what they saw and could do: attackers and defenders alike.

 

That's the beauty of sport although it sucks to be on the receiving end of such a crushing blow.

As Johnson catches the ball, G Burgess is almost directly in front of him. I agree that he was shot and wouldn't have covered and they probably would have worked an overlap, but there wasn't actually one there until Sinfield came out of the line. Not saying they wouldn't have scored, but they (and us) had many overlaps during the game that weren't converted.



#63 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:37 PM

Have a look at Goodwin's tiny knock-on at 78:42 mins. If that had've been picked up, this thread wouldn't have been required.....

You didn't see it, did you? Go on, see for yourself and let me know what you think!;

Nothing there mate.



#64 Northern Eel

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:44 PM

Nothing there mate.


You don't think? Pretty sure watching from the touchline that he fumbles whilst gaining his feet to play the ball. TV inconclusive.

#65 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:49 PM

You don't think? Pretty sure watching from the touchline that he fumbles whilst gaining his feet to play the ball. TV inconclusive.

Just watched the replay and he moves his arm down with the ball but then pulls it back up while he gains his feet. The ball doesn't touch the ground and he doesn't lose it.

 

Just watched it on a big screen in HD, definitely no knock on.



#66 gavin7094

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:52 PM

There comes the ironic tragedy as the tired 33 year-old make-shift half back tried to race up on the 23 year-old speedster. Sinfield was never quick (even in his prime) and could not quite get there

Funny how his physical attributes were thought sufficient, I.e. not mentioned when he created 2 tries but worth mentioning when he failed to stop one? I don't think any single defender would have stopped Johnson in that position, not Tomkins, Cudjoe, Westwood stc. His initial backward movement to evade Sinfield's lunge was simply devastating and opened up enough space for the score.

We lost. Let it go. Move on.

PS. I would argue that he is still in his prime. Some of his performances for Leeds last season were truly extraordinary. His cover tackling is phenomenal.

#67 John Rhino

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

I don't blame anyone from the England team for the loss but that was a schoolboy error or a brain explosion from Sinfield's to shot up that quick and not making the tackle.


He did not run out of the line. Two players on his outside went with him. Those inside him stood almost still until it was too late. They were probably exhausted.
No one player or incident lost the game. If more chances had been taken and fewer mistakes made them we would have won. But every game ever played is like that.
Just have to get over it and move on.
I'm starting to think about Saturday now which is good.

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#68 Scubby

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:14 PM

Funny how his physical attributes were thought sufficient, I.e. not mentioned when he created 2 tries but worth mentioning when he failed to stop one? I don't think any single defender would have stopped Johnson in that position, not Tomkins, Cudjoe, Westwood stc. His initial backward movement to evade Sinfield's lunge was simply devastating and opened up enough space for the score.

We lost. Let it go. Move on.

PS. I would argue that he is still in his prime. Some of his performances for Leeds last season were truly extraordinary. His cover tackling is phenomenal.

 

Sorry Gav but don't agree. I do love Sinfield as a player but he is filling 7 and how can you not bring up pace when he is up against Shaun Johnson (that was the comparison). Sinfield played brilliantly but I was highlighting the speedy young gun against the makeshift 33-year-old 7. Watch the first half back again. When Sinfield breaks through he has no alternative but to try to run through Locke. Johnson would have stepped him with speed. If he had made the tackle at the end he would have been a hero. Tiny little things decide matches. Am gutted both for him and for England.



#69 Vichyssoise

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

As Johnson catches the ball, G Burgess is almost directly in front of him. I agree that he was shot and wouldn't have covered and they probably would have worked an overlap, but there wasn't actually one there until Sinfield came out of the line. Not saying they wouldn't have scored, but they (and us) had many overlaps during the game that weren't converted.

 

Fair enough.



#70 Trojan

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:23 PM

Players did make mistakes.

 

Are we not allowed to discuss them?

 But you're picking on Sinfield again - you never blame anyone else. Sinfield did charge out of the line, but then so did two others with him, why didn't they stay back to cover?


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#71 Stan Doffarf

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:45 PM

Surely it was all McNamara's fault? 


And when they found our shadows
Grouped around the TV sets
They ran down every lead
They repeated every test
They checked out all the data on their lists
And then the alien anthropologists
Admitted they were still perplexed
But on eliminating every other reason
For our sad demise
They logged the only explanation left
This species has amused itself to death
No tears to cry no feelings left
This species has amused itself to death

#72 Dave T

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:49 PM

But you're picking on Sinfield again - you never blame anyone else. Sinfield did charge out of the line, but then so did two others with him, why didn't they stay back to cover?

you are mistaking me with somebody else.

#73 giwildgo

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:37 AM

The problem with this thread is that it overlooks all the positive things that each player did. For example:
Sinfield - might have missed a crucial tackle and conversion, but was also a key part of two of England's tries.
O'Loughlin - may have gave away a silly penalty or two, and made a couple of errors, but he also got through a huge amount of defensive work and scored a try.
George Burgess - gave away a crucial penalty at the end, but also wore down and dominated the NZ pack in the collision when he was on the pitch.
Widdop - obstructed a NZ player at a key moment, but also gave the most effective performance of an England stand off for many a year.
Tomkins - made one big error, but was solid defensively and took some very difficult high balls under intense pressure.
Westwood - failed to get the ball down when it would have killed the game, but was a disruptive presence in attack and defence.
Hall - guilty of poor positioning for one try and could have killed the game with a crucial intercept, but that very same 'missed' opportunity was one of a number of occasions he saved tries.

At the end of the day there is only one person I blame for the defeat....................no, not McNamara...

The real villian of the piece is Shaun Johnson's mother and the choices she made a couple of decades ago.

Edited by giwildgo, 25 November 2013 - 07:38 AM.

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#74 Dave T

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:23 AM

I dont think the good stuff is being ignored. Everybody has said how well England played and how proud they are of them and that this was one of the best Tests ever seen.

What this thread is about is key turning points - what cintributed most to the loss. I think it may have been better not to have the word blame in the thread title as it has made people defensive, but surely discussing key turning points after a game is part of the fun, as is the whole 'what if' conversation.

I personally thought Sinfield and O'Loughlin and G Burgess made crucial 'silly' errors but I also thought they were outstanding and three of the best players on the park.

Ultimately, we had a 4 point lead with 2 mins left and we had the ball. We weren't good enough to close the game out and we need to learn from it.

The one crucial play that I dont think anybody would do again was the kick down the throat of the fullback.

High tackles and knock ons are genuine match errors, nobody chooses to do them.

The kick gave time for two sets of six instead of one, that was the crucial turning point. Im sure Sinfield wouldnt do that again.

#75 Human Punk

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:35 AM

Indeed, the kick infield was what did for us in the end. When I finally arrived back home last night I forced myself to watch the last 2 minutes, and someone in the commentary box (Nobby?) can be heard saying 'put it out, put it out'. That's what everyone thought was going to happen. I'd just finished congratulating England on bringing the ball over to the side on the last so it would be easy to find touch and take all the momentum out of the last minute. Then Sinfield makes the biggest wrong decision ever.

I really like Sinfield, and would challenge anyone to name a player who has done as much for his club over so long a period, but he was in the team because he's our leader and captain, and if there was one player who should have been making the right decision at a crucial point in the game, it was him.

So, sorry, and I'm sure Kev will be hurting (because he had played the game of his live in an England jersey up to that point), but he lost us the game.



#76 Griff9of13

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:47 AM

Surely it was all McNamara's fault? 

 

You may well be right, because I wouldn’t blame any of the players for a decision made in a fraction of a second while on the pitch under enormous pressure I would say the coach had time (still under pressure) to make reflective decisions. The one crucial error on his part was the use of our bench. The way it was played we were effectively reduced to 2 and a half replacements (Burrow = half, not for his size, but for the amount of time he spent on the pitch). This will have put more of a physical and therefore mental strain on the remaining 15 Players. Had we made effective use of 17 players and not just 15 who knows how the last few minutes would have panned out.


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#77 StixRooster

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:34 AM

Sinfield should have kicked it out.

 

In the heat of the battle, a mistake was made, it cost us dearly and I bet he's been beating himself up about it ever since. He then dived forwards to make the tackle that Johnson sidestepped, not because it was a rash decision, but because he was the captain of a team seconds away from the World Cup final and desperately wanted to get there.

 

The whole team stood up as a man to what is perhaps the best RL team for many a year IMO.


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#78 Dave T

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:22 AM

 But you're picking on Sinfield again - you never blame anyone else. Sinfield did charge out of the line, but then so did two others with him, why didn't they stay back to cover?

any further reply on this nonsense claim of yours that I always blame Sinfield?



#79 boxhead

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:26 AM

Sinfield should have kicked it out.

 

In the heat of the battle, a mistake was made, it cost us dearly and I bet he's been beating himself up about it ever since. He then dived forwards to make the tackle that Johnson sidestepped, not because it was a rash decision, but because he was the captain of a team seconds away from the World Cup final and desperately wanted to get there.

 

The whole team stood up as a man to what is perhaps the best RL team for many a year IMO.

Do you mean the Kiwis?



#80 scrape_goose

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:08 PM

Sinfield should have kicked it out.

 

In the heat of the battle, a mistake was made, it cost us dearly and I bet he's been beating himself up about it ever since. He then dived forwards to make the tackle that Johnson sidestepped, not because it was a rash decision, but because he was the captain of a team seconds away from the World Cup final and desperately wanted to get there.

 

The whole team stood up as a man to what is perhaps the best RL team for many a year IMO.

I'd like to know what Sinfield was thinking to kick in field and not put it out, a deep kick liek that would've required a long chase from an exahsuted England side to pin NZ deep down the field, that wasn't going to happen. Also when Sinfield runs up on Johnson, he hesitates as he's closing Johnson down, I know he has to break down and anticipat ethe side step, but he'd made the decision to close Johnson down then allows Johnson the millisecond he neds to step back and into the gap.

 

I don't think anyone is to blame as the game could've been finished off numerous times by both sides. If we'd won NZ would be going over there "what if's" there were plenty for both sides. Every player played a part. For me the biggest error was Charnley trying to keep the ball alive and blindly batting it back in field leading to an NZ try. I hate it when they do that in SL, it's a gamble, play safe kill the ball then defend.







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