Jump to content


RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE (ISSUE 397 - MAY 2014): Available to download now. Get the app from Apple Newsstand or GooglePlay, or click here to read it online now at Pocketmags.com - Print edition in shops from Friday, or click here to get it delivered by post in the UK or worldwide.

Rugby League World - April 2014
League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Scottish Independence Referendum


  • Please log in to reply
311 replies to this topic

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country? (34 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  1. Yes (16 votes [47.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.06%

  2. No (18 votes [52.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.94%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#301 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,591 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 10:46 PM

I think it's fairly settled ground that politicians will happily experiment on areas where they're not going to gain many votes.  For Thatcher, that was the north of England, Wales and Scotland.  Blair was so intent on getting the votes of the south that he didn't push too far.

If you read up on the Poll Tax, it was actually the Scottish Tories that requested that the poll tax be implemented in Scotland a year ahead of England. The "Thatcher used Scotland as a sandbox" is a myth started by the Scottish nationalists. Like most of their whinges the facts are somewhat different.

 

Added to which I think there is a little bit of revisionism here. There are certainly areas of the north where very few people vote Tory but that certainly isn't true of the north as a whole IIRC the Tories actually beat Labour in terms of the popular vote and seats in 1983 in Yorkshire. The North West is probably very similar. It is not true to say that they didn't gain many votes there.


Edited by Northern Sol, 12 April 2014 - 10:57 PM.


#302 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 14,693 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:45 PM

If you read up on the Poll Tax, it was actually the Scottish Tories that requested that the poll tax be implemented in Scotland a year ahead of England. The "Thatcher used Scotland as a sandbox" is a myth started by the Scottish nationalists. Like most of their whinges the facts are somewhat different.

 

Added to which I think there is a little bit of revisionism here. There are certainly areas of the north where very few people vote Tory but that certainly isn't true of the north as a whole IIRC the Tories actually beat Labour in terms of the popular vote and seats in 1983 in Yorkshire. The North West is probably very similar. It is not true to say that they didn't gain many votes there.

Because Scottish Tories requested it doesn't legitimise it's implementation there.  They haven't "won" a general election there since Adam was a little lad.  Didn't stop them doing it,. so any protests that Scottish MP's shouldn't have a say on wholly English matters has a bit of a hollow ring to me. In other words it's a red herring.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#303 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 14,693 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:47 PM

What's that got to do with anything?  Completely irrelevant since Scotland wasn't independent.

Scotland isn't independent now but the Tories are always complaining about the fact that Scottish MP's (non Tory MP's TBH) have a say on solely English matters, it's swings and roundabouts.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#304 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,591 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:59 AM

Because Scottish Tories requested it doesn't legitimise it's implementation there.  They haven't "won" a general election there since Adam was a little lad.  Didn't stop them doing it,. so any protests that Scottish MP's shouldn't have a say on wholly English matters has a bit of a hollow ring to me. In other words it's a red herring.

They won an election in the UK of which Scotland is a part. Whinging about the fact that the rest of the country chose someone they didn't like is petulant particularly as they were over-represented by 20% in terms of seats.

 

I don't recall Labour ever "winning" in the Home Counties but it doesn't make the Blair / Brown governments illegitimate. 


  • Tiny Tim likes this

#305 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,591 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:01 AM

Scotland isn't independent now but the Tories are always complaining about the fact that Scottish MP's (non Tory MP's TBH) have a say on solely English matters, it's swings and roundabouts.

I don't think it's right that top-up fees got through because Scottish MPs voted for it in the knowledge that it wouldn't apply in Scotland. Do you?


  • l'angelo mysterioso, nadera78, Tiny Tim and 1 other like this

#306 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 14,693 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:11 PM

They won an election in the UK of which Scotland is a part. Whinging about the fact that the rest of the country chose someone they didn't like is petulant particularly as they were over-represented by 20% in terms of seats.

 

I don't recall Labour ever "winning" in the Home Counties but it doesn't make the Blair / Brown governments illegitimate. 

But that's what those who object to Scottish MP's voting on purely English bills say is unfair.  If we are a United Kingdom, then it shouldn't matter where you were elected from, you should have the same say. But according to the Tories it's unfair when Scottish MP's vote on purely English matters but not vice-versa.  

As for top up fees, the whole thing is illegitimate IMO.  ,

The Lib/Dems specifically promised in their manifesto not to introduce them, but it still went ahead.  I've absolutely no doubt they'll pay a heavy price for that next year.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#307 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,591 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:43 PM

But that's what those who object to Scottish MP's voting on purely English bills say is unfair.  If we are a United Kingdom, then it shouldn't matter where you were elected from, you should have the same say. But according to the Tories it's unfair when Scottish MP's vote on purely English matters but not vice-versa.  

As for top up fees, the whole thing is illegitimate IMO.  ,

The Lib/Dems specifically promised in their manifesto not to introduce them, but it still went ahead.  I've absolutely no doubt they'll pay a heavy price for that next year.

It shouldn't matter where you were elected in a united kingdom, but we haven't had that since devolution. We have a situation where Scots MPs can vote for unpopular legislation without being punished by the electorate. You might say that English MPs voted for the poll tax for Scotland but at least they did so in the knowledge that the poll tax was also coming to England.



#308 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 14,693 posts

Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

It shouldn't matter where you were elected in a united kingdom, but we haven't had that since devolution. We have a situation where Scots MPs can vote for unpopular legislation without being punished by the electorate. You might say that English MPs voted for the poll tax for Scotland but at least they did so in the knowledge that the poll tax was also coming to England.

The whole basis for the Thatcher years was that unpopular policies affected mainly non Tory areas, that's what this government are doing too, so what you say is incorrect. In the recession of the eighties it was Wales, Northern England and Scotland that suffered the worst. In the recession of the nineties, the pain was more evenly spread, and the Tories got their comeuppance in their heartlands  1997.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#309 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,591 posts

Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:44 AM

The whole basis for the Thatcher years was that unpopular policies affected mainly non Tory areas, that's what this government are doing too, so what you say is incorrect. In the recession of the eighties it was Wales, Northern England and Scotland that suffered the worst. In the recession of the nineties, the pain was more evenly spread, and the Tories got their comeuppance in their heartlands  1997.

It wasn't equally distributed because the heavy industrial areas were the ones that had their economies based on a situation that couldn't be sustained. I'm not sure how it was Thatcher's fault that mining, the docks, factories etc were the mainstay of the economies of West Yorks, the central belt, the West Midlands etc or that these industries were unprofitable. 

 

The fact that the Tories relied to much on the market to return these areas to prosperity is why I'm not an unqualified fan of Thatcher but that's the benefit of hindsight for you. But it's not a case of deliberately choosing to inflict pain on "the north" for no reason is it is often characterised.

 

But what is often ignored is that Thatcher was from Grantham in the midlands not the home counties. It is also often ignored that a significant number of northerners voted Conservative and not just in towns like Harrogate. Yorkshire would have had a Tory majority (albeit a narrow one) in 1983 if its results are considered separately, I'd be surprised if the North West was much different.


Edited by Northern Sol, 15 April 2014 - 09:46 AM.


#310 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 15,968 posts

Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:58 AM

It wasn't equally distributed because the heavy industrial areas were the ones that had their economies based on a situation that couldn't be sustained. I'm not sure how it was Thatcher's fault that mining, the docks, factories etc were the mainstay of the economies of West Yorks, the central belt, the West Midlands etc or that these industries were unprofitable. 

 

The fact that the Tories relied to much on the market to return these areas to prosperity is why I'm not an unqualified fan of Thatcher but that's the benefit of hindsight for you. But it's not a case of deliberately choosing to inflict pain on "the north" for no reason is it is often characterised.

 

But what is often ignored is that Thatcher was from Grantham in the midlands not the home counties. It is also often ignored that a significant number of northerners voted Conservative and not just in towns like Harrogate. Yorkshire would have had a Tory majority (albeit a narrow one) in 1983 if its results are considered separately, I'd be surprised if the North West was much different.

I've always found many of the working* class population to be small-c conservatives, natural fodder for the big-c Conservatives if they'd just try to be a bit more likeable.  I remember all the election nights from the past where they were talking about the bellweather constituencies and towns like Basildon which are generally rough working class constituencies, whoever won them tended to win the election.  Many of the people I know who vote Labour and are staunch Labour voters are probably natural Conservatives in their attitudes but the Conservatives have gone so far out of their way to alienate them that they'll never see that and would rather rip up their polling card than vote for them.

 

I remember one quite loud argument going on in my house back in the late 70s between two union shop stewards, one was going on about their latest demands for 4 day weeks, reduced hours and so on while the other was going on about the coal not digging itself and who they expected to pay their wages if the pit made no money.  The latter of the two was quite senior in the local Labour party and would have ripped your head off if you said to him that "did you know that that's what the Tories are saying?"

 

It's something the Tories have butchered over the years that the Scots tend to be even more small-c conservative in their outlook and really are natural converts but the Home Counties introversion of the party has made them even more unlikeable, especially since the Thatcher government.

 

* by that I mean genuinely working class rather than the lazy mass grouping of everyone not in the other classes.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#311 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,591 posts

Posted 15 April 2014 - 10:03 AM

I've always found many of the working* class population to be small-c conservatives, natural fodder for the big-c Conservatives if they'd just try to be a bit more likeable.  I remember all the election nights from the past where they were talking about the bellweather constituencies and towns like Basildon which are generally rough working class constituencies, whoever won them tended to win the election.  Many of the people I know who vote Labour and are staunch Labour voters are probably natural Conservatives in their attitudes but the Conservatives have gone so far out of their way to alienate them that they'll never see that and would rather rip up their polling card than vote for them.

 

I remember one quite loud argument going on in my house back in the late 70s between two union shop stewards, one was going on about their latest demands for 4 day weeks, reduced hours and so on while the other was going on about the coal not digging itself and who they expected to pay their wages if the pit made no money.  The latter of the two was quite senior in the local Labour party and would have ripped your head off if you said to him that "did you know that that's what the Tories are saying?"

 

* by that I mean genuinely working class rather than the lazy mass grouping of everyone not in the other classes.

IMO a big problem was presentation. The electoral system that we have delivers a sea of red in "the north" and a sea of blue in "the south". Neither is a particularly fair representation of the range of opinions in those regions but it's led to "government by the south" when the Tories are in and "government by the north" when Labour are in.

 

Had the Tory government of the 80s had a few more prominent northerners then a lot of folk may have felt differently.



#312 Bob8

Bob8
  • Coach
  • 8,988 posts

Posted 15 April 2014 - 11:01 AM

.....

 

I remember one quite loud argument going on in my house back in the late 70s between two union shop stewards, one was going on about their latest demands for 4 day weeks, reduced hours and so on while the other was going on about the coal not digging itself and who they expected to pay their wages if the pit made no money.  The latter of the two was quite senior in the local Labour party and would have ripped your head off if you said to him that "did you know that that's what the Tories are saying?"

 

......

What both those people agreed on was that the labour of digging coal out of the ground was what was important.  Many Tories would agree with that.  However, there is the Tory that sees landlords as providing houses and builders as feckless wastrels.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users