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Scottish Independence Referendum


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Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country? (55 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  1. Yes (27 votes [49.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 49.09%

  2. No (28 votes [50.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.91%

Vote

#341 longboard

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:28 AM

I'd expect the no campaign to focus quite a bit of attention on the yes campaign's trope about Scotland being subject to policy decisions made in 'faraway Westminster' as being unacceptable and demeaning and the seeming contradiction that the SNP policy is for Scotland to be members of the EU, with the inevitable consequence of having to accept policies and laws made in even further away Brussels, where Scotland's representatives' power and influence will be even less than in Westminster.



#342 Wolford6

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:33 AM

 with the inevitable consequence of having to accept policies and laws made in even further away Brussels, where Scotland's representatives' power and influence will be even less than in Westminster.

 

 

That's just not true. The UK is currently being dictated to by an unelected bureaucrat from the micky mouse country of Luxembourg. Luxembourg has a lower population than Leeds.


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#343 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:43 AM

longing for a" yes" vote. Not least then the Former United Kingdom (FUK) will be freed from the tyranny of Scottish MPs voting on things that only affect England. 



#344 The Future is League

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:45 AM

I think the biggest problem the yes campaign have is Alex Salmond himself. To me and many others he is viewed as an arrogant know it all.



#345 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:48 AM

I think the biggest problem the yes campaign have is Alex Salmond himself. To me and many others he is viewed as an arrogant know it all.

 

viewed as an arrogant know it all

 

Not just viewed.  



#346 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:51 AM

An ICM snap poll of more than 500 Scottish voters for the Guardian said Darling, leader of the Better Together campaign, won the live debate with Scotland's first minister by 56% to 44% – defying expectations that Salmond would be the victor.

 

see this report in the forums must-read organ: http://www.theguardi...te-independence



#347 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:22 AM

longing for a" yes" vote. Not least then the Former United Kingdom (FUK) will be freed from the tyranny of Scottish MPs voting on things that only affect England. 

yes


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#348 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:26 AM

An ICM snap poll of more than 500 Scottish voters for the Guardian said Darling, leader of the Better Together campaign, won the live debate with Scotland's first minister by 56% to 44% – defying expectations that Salmond would be the victor.

 

see this report in the forums must-read organ: http://www.theguardi...te-independence

the increasingly punchable Alex Salmond thinks that Scotland has the right to retain the pound, because it's theirs as much as everyone else's.

 

The pound is the currency of the UK. Scotland won't be in the UK won't be their decking currency. The UK is in the EU. Scotland won't be in the UK and therefore will have to negotiate itself into the EU. Get the bloody border posts up now.


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#349 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:31 AM

L'Ange...are you SURE you are not me but with a beard and a Yorkshire accent?  :ohmy:  :)  :)



#350 ckn

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:39 AM

That's just not true. The UK is currently being dictated to by an unelected bureaucrat from the micky mouse country of Luxembourg. Luxembourg has a lower population than Leeds.

Although I really don't want to drag that off topic, that old chestnut really needs to be ground underfoot at every sighting.  At the EU elections in May, the party across Europe that gained the most MEPs, the EPP (which is a coalition of MEPs from all across the EU), is allowed to nominate a President who is then rubber-stamped in by the European Council (the elected heads of government of each country, e.g. our esteemed Mr Cameron).  This is a two stage DEMOCRATIC process that follows the standard process of separation of powers.  The Legislature of the EU, the Parliament, nominates a President, the EU Council rubber-stamps it and then that President leads the Executive of the EU, the Commission, and is overseen by the Judiciary.  It's almost identical to the UK process, but slightly more democratic, where the Legislature of the UK, the Houses of Parliament (but more specifically the House of Commons), nominates a Prime Minister, the Queen rubber-stamps it and then that Prime Minister leads the Executive of the EU, the Cabinet, that is overseen by the Judiciary.

 

It suits the little-Englanders to state that Juncker is an unelected bureaucrat but he holds just as much of a democratic mandate as David Cameron.  It's also amusing to see people talking about him "currently dictating" to us when he doesn't take up power until November!


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#351 ckn

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:46 AM

the increasingly punchable Alex Salmond thinks that Scotland has the right to retain the pound, because it's theirs as much as everyone else's.

 

The pound is the currency of the UK. Scotland won't be in the UK won't be their decking currency. The UK is in the EU. Scotland won't be in the UK and therefore will have to negotiate itself into the EU. Get the bloody border posts up now.

Core ground clarifications part 2 for this morning:  The pound.

 

The Act of Union 1707 merged the currencies of England and Scotland, creating a single pound.  The UK government, by Act of Parliament, a few years later then ordered the Scottish banks to hand over their reserve capital to the Bank of England which would form a UK-wide lender of last resort and central bank.  The Bank of England is mis-named, it is the Bank of the UK, and each member nation has paid its dues into it when their national banks had their reserve capital centralised.  If Scotland gains its independence then it has just as much right to the assets, capital and central banking power of the Bank of England as the rump UK would have.  It would be effectively bank robbery on a national scale if the Bank of England removed central banking rights from Scotland.  I suppose Westminster could compensate the Scots for removing their rights to the BoE but it'd most likely be in the hundreds of billions that it would cost as that'd be what it would take to restore effective central banking powers to the Scottish banks.

 

Not as simple as those nice people from Westminster say, is it?


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#352 ckn

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:47 AM

Constitutional law was one of my highest scoring subjects in law school :)


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#353 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:19 AM

L'Ange...are you SURE you are not me but with a beard and a Yorkshire accent?  :ohmy:  :)  :)

maybe if I hit my head with a hammer a few times to knock my IQ down a few notches you could have a point :tongue:


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#354 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:27 AM

Core ground clarifications part 2 for this morning:  The pound.

 

The Act of Union 1707 merged the currencies of England and Scotland, creating a single pound.  The UK government, by Act of Parliament, a few years later then ordered the Scottish banks to hand over their reserve capital to the Bank of England which would form a UK-wide lender of last resort and central bank.  The Bank of England is mis-named, it is the Bank of the UK, and each member nation has paid its dues into it when their national banks had their reserve capital centralised.  If Scotland gains its independence then it has just as much right to the assets, capital and central banking power of the Bank of England as the rump UK would have.  It would be effectively bank robbery on a national scale if the Bank of England removed central banking rights from Scotland.  I suppose Westminster could compensate the Scots for removing their rights to the BoE but it'd most likely be in the hundreds of billions that it would cost as that'd be what it would take to restore effective central banking powers to the Scottish banks.

 

Not as simple as those nice people from Westminster say, is it?

I had a general idea about that Craig, and am being mildly facetious…I don't really fancy punching anyone including Salmond, but thanks for supplying the detail. What I would say is that Scotland has enjoyed the benefits of being a member of the central bank as well as contributing to it. Cameron et al have seemed stone cold certain that they could deny the Scots the right to have the pound as its currency. One wonders where they got the idea from.

 

Edit: Here's the result of the most cursory of googles

 

http://news.yahoo.co...77--sector.html


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 06 August 2014 - 09:30 AM.

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#355 ckn

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:30 AM

I had a general idea about that Craig, and am being mildly facetious…I don't really fancy punching anyone including Salmond, but thanks for supplying the detail. What I would say is that Scotland has enjoyed the benefits of being a member of the central bank as well as contributing to it. Cameron et al have seemed stone cold certain that they could deny the Scots the right to have the pound as its currency. One wonders where they got the idea from.

I'd suggest a mixture of ignorance, arrogance and a belief that no-one can stop them.  Much like they do with virtually everything else they do.


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#356 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:16 AM

Constitutional law was one of my highest scoring subjects in law school :)

 

I would keep quiet about that if I were you. You know what people on here think of lawyers. Anyway, it was skool, not the real world.

 

In any case,  it a fair bet that in the event of  a " yes" vote all the points that are raised by the Better Together people ill be negotiated,. that means the pound, the EU, Schengen,  BBC, Armed Forces, nuclear etc etc etc etc , in fact everything, despite a widespread desire to see the odious Salmond get what he deserves.


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#357 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:18 AM

I'd suggest a mixture of ignorance, arrogance and a belief that no-one can stop them.  Much like they do with virtually everything else they do.

well yes

but they can't be that stupid


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#358 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:20 AM

maybe if I hit my head with a hammer a few times to knock my IQ down a few notches you could have a point :tongue:

 

I can help with the first part but but the second bit is up for debate as you choosing Yorkshire doesn't support your second point. :P



#359 ckn

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:24 AM

I would keep quiet about that if I were you. You know what people on here think of lawyers. Anyway, it was skool, not the real world.

 

In any case,  it a fair bet that in the event of  a " yes" vote all the points that are raised by the Better Together people ill be negotiated,. that means the pound, the EU, Schengen,  BBC, Armed Forces, nuclear etc etc etc etc , in fact everything, despite a widespread desire to see the odious Salmond get what he deserves.

1. The remainder of the UK cannot and will not be able to provide suitable facilities for maintaining our nuclear missile submarines anytime soon, the SNP have very clearly said they'll be kicking out Trident from Scottish waters.

2. Scotland cannot and will not be able to provide suitable central banking facilities anytime soon, all main Westminster parties have said they'll not give Scotland access to the BoE system.

 

Easy to see a mutual point of major co-operation there, isn't it?  The rest is covered in the SNP's actually very fair separation proposal document, the Westminster government would have to be in real pre-school nursery tantrum mode to quibble about well over 90% of it.


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#360 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:54 AM

1. The remainder of the UK cannot and will not be able to provide suitable facilities for maintaining our nuclear missile submarines anytime soon, the SNP have very clearly said they'll be kicking out Trident from Scottish waters.

2. Scotland cannot and will not be able to provide suitable central banking facilities anytime soon, all main Westminster parties have said they'll not give Scotland access to the BoE system.

 

Easy to see a mutual point of major co-operation there, isn't it?  The rest is covered in the SNP's actually very fair separation proposal document, the Westminster government would have to be in real pre-school nursery tantrum mode to quibble about well over 90% of it.

although a change of defence policy would throw a spanner in that works.

Even if Trident were renewed, there's a kind of time scale anomaly.

Scotland keeps the pound and it's like that forever.

 

The non Scottish part of the UK and its naval nuclear deterrent are relatively(I hope) ephemeral


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