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Scottish Independence Referendum


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1133 replies to this topic

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country? (55 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  1. Yes (27 votes [49.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 49.09%

  2. No (28 votes [50.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.91%

Vote

#161 Phil

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:43 AM

I'd pay an extra 10p in the pound to rebuild Hadrians Wall, no bother


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#162 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

Then you lose most of Northumberland...


with plenty of notice they can move
Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

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The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens.


#163 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:00 AM

http://notesfromnort...ency-nightmare/

 

The currency is not Scotland’s (and it’s not England’s either). It is the currency of the United Kingdom. If Scotland votes Yes to independence it will have voted to leave the United Kingdom: that’s exactly what “independence” means — independence from the United Kingdom. If Scotland leaves the UK it leaves the UK’s public institutions, which would become the institutions of the rest of the UK. The UK’s assets and liabilities would fall to be apportioned equitably between the rUK and an independent Scotland, but the pound is neither an asset nor a liability. Any gold or other reserves left in the Bank of England would fall to be apportioned. So would the national debt. But the pound itself would not. It is Scotland’s pound now because and only because Scotland is part of the UK. If Scotland votes to leave the UK it votes to leave the UK’s pound. 

 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#164 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:19 AM

Another excellent summary.



#165 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:26 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-26215963

 

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to join the European Union.

 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#166 ckn

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:03 PM

Another excellent summary.

Is it?  It's just an opinion.  I really cannot get why people say the pound is not an asset.  Are they deliberately being obtuse on this?  Of course the pound is an asset otherwise why would there be such a fuss about it.  Even on the most basic level of it something of value then it passes that test as clearly Scotland values it, as does England.  If the pound wasn't an asset then why would anyone care?  On even scratching the surface a little bit, an established lender of last resort with central banking facilities is a massive asset that's probably worth many tens of billions, if not even getting well into the hundreds of billions.

Then there's the independence opinion he takes, the "independence" sought isn't a county or two breaking away from its parent, it's a separate country within the banner of the United Kingdom that is going to repeal the Act of Union.  Surely that's the most logical step to how independence would work and that means certain institutions, including banking and currency, get split according to those terms, not the deliberately adverse terms of what many commentators, including more than a few on here, would like to impose.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#167 ckn

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:05 PM

He is right on that.  Spain would veto immediately to make it blunt to a certain grumpy region of theirs that independence isn't that easy.  It'd be nothing to do with Scotland or the Scots, it'd be naked self-interest from many countries slapping down their own internal dissidents.

 

This is one area the SNP really could be doing with recognising and publicly planning for ways around.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#168 ckn

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:21 PM

A separate post, all of its own.  I really don't understand all the hostility towards independence.  If a self-identifying semi-autonomous state votes to go its own way then why should that be the cause of all this bitterness with the unionists wanting to "punish" them with the deliberately adverse and quite hostile terms that is being discussed.  The SNP have said that they're more than happy to take their fair share of the public debt but that they also want their fair share of the public assets, what's ever so wrong with that?

 

There was an article I read in Friday's Indy where there was a very public threat laid down by Cameron, albeit in more diplomatic terms, that they fully intend to get their way in any independence negotiations or they'll withhold independence from Scotland.

 

Anyway, I really don't see why northerners are opposing Scotland going its own way, apart from maybe being left with a far greater chance of Tory majorities.  The UK is run from London, Westminster concentrates on London and the South-East, when the Tories are in they look after their own, when Labour are in they spend most of their time trying to persuade Tories to vote for them, even when in opposition the Labour lot seem to be hell-bent on sucking up to the centre-right voters of the south and south-east rather than shoring up their core heartlands.  The only reason that both parties can treat the north with such contempt is that there are plenty of places that would just keep voting Labour even if Ed Miliband openly adopted every one of the Tories' policies.  Scotland were in exactly the same situation until the SNP became a proper political force, now they have a whole raft of devolved powers and on many areas can just bluntly ignore London, oh for that autonomy in the north but that was nice and neatly sabotaged within the Labour party when it came around under the last Labour government.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#169 Trojan

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:51 PM

There's an old saw "whoever wins the election the government always gets in"  I'd like to modify it to, "whoever wins the election London still remains in power."  I think that's what most Scots object to. And TBH so do I.


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#170 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:58 PM

Is it?  It's just an opinion.  I really cannot get why people say the pound is not an asset.  Are they deliberately being obtuse on this?  Of course the pound is an asset otherwise why would there be such a fuss about it.  Even on the most basic level of it something of value then it passes that test as clearly Scotland values it, as does England.  If the pound wasn't an asset then why would anyone care?  On even scratching the surface a little bit, an established lender of last resort with central banking facilities is a massive asset that's probably worth many tens of billions, if not even getting well into the hundreds of billions.

Then there's the independence opinion he takes, the "independence" sought isn't a county or two breaking away from its parent, it's a separate country within the banner of the United Kingdom that is going to repeal the Act of Union.  Surely that's the most logical step to how independence would work and that means certain institutions, including banking and currency, get split according to those terms, not the deliberately adverse terms of what many commentators, including more than a few on here, would like to impose.

Simple an asset is something with an inherent value. A currency only has a value because of an on-going commitment by the central bank. Take the central bank out of the equation and it's meaningless bits of paper (or random bits of metal).

 

They are quite entitled to a fair share of the Bank of England assets in order to create their own central bank but they are not entitled to expect rUK to agree to a currency union with them. Two very different things, you can see what a currency union implies if you just look at the Eurozone. Germany was exposed and obliged to bail out Greece because they share a currency, however, Greece would never be able to bail out Germany.

 

It's not a case of evil Tories trying to sabotage the poor Scots. It's telling that both the Liberals and Labour have come out on the "Tory side". There is literally nothing in this deal for the English side.



#171 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:01 AM

A separate post, all of its own.  I really don't understand all the hostility towards independence.  If a self-identifying semi-autonomous state votes to go its own way then why should that be the cause of all this bitterness with the unionists wanting to "punish" them with the deliberately adverse and quite hostile terms that is being discussed.  The SNP have said that they're more than happy to take their fair share of the public debt but that they also want their fair share of the public assets, what's ever so wrong with that?

 

A stated before. It is not an asset. No country that I have heard of has ever agreed to such an arrangement with a break-away region. No states that I know of (bar the Eurozone) share a currency. What is being demanded is simply outrageous. The Scots keep all their oil money but expect to keep the protection of the British state for their economy.

 

It's not a case of opposing independence. I'd welcome the chance to bid rid of them. But they expect to keep playing the "We're Scottish when it suits us but British when that suits us" even after independence. 


Edited by Northern Sol, 17 February 2014 - 12:06 AM.


#172 ckn

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:14 AM

A stated before. It is not an asset. No country that I have heard of has ever agreed to such an arrangement with a break-away region. No states that I know of (bar the Eurozone) share a currency. What is being demanded is simply outrageous. The Scots keep all their oil money but expect to keep the protection of the British state for their economy.

No... the Scots just want their share of the central bank that's part of the UK's assets.  It's not London's asset, it's not England's, it's the UK's and therefore part of Scotland's assets.  If you think that the Sterling pound is not an asset then I really don't know what basis you're working from as it's alien to me.

 

As a part of the Act of Union, the English and Scottish pounds were merged, the Scottish banks later merged their central banking responsibilities into the BoE and it became one tied system.  If the BoE becomes rump-UK only then Scotland should be compensated for that loss of service that they'll have to cover in setting up their own, again it's part of their rights.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#173 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:37 AM

No... the Scots just want their share of the central bank that's part of the UK's assets.  It's not London's asset, it's not England's, it's the UK's and therefore part of Scotland's assets.  If you think that the Sterling pound is not an asset then I really don't know what basis you're working from as it's alien to me.

 

As a part of the Act of Union, the English and Scottish pounds were merged, the Scottish banks later merged their central banking responsibilities into the BoE and it became one tied system.  If the BoE becomes rump-UK only then Scotland should be compensated for that loss of service that they'll have to cover in setting up their own, again it's part of their rights.

I agreed that the Scots should be helped to set up a central bank with assets for the Bank of England. That's fair. Gold reserves are an asset, the value of the buildings is an asset, the money itself is not. Assets have value. Money only has a value because it's backed by gold. I can't see anyone denying the Scots their share of the gold.

 

What is not fair is a currency union. It has a lot of macroeconomic consequences. None of which are in the interest of the rUK.

 

I repeat it is like the difference between helping them set up their own army and them insisting on their right to appoint generals to a continuing British army.



#174 John Drake

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

A separate post, all of its own.  I really don't understand all the hostility towards independence.  If a self-identifying semi-autonomous state votes to go its own way then why should that be the cause of all this bitterness with the unionists wanting to "punish" them with the deliberately adverse and quite hostile terms that is being discussed.  The SNP have said that they're more than happy to take their fair share of the public debt but that they also want their fair share of the public assets, what's ever so wrong with that?

 

There was an article I read in Friday's Indy where there was a very public threat laid down by Cameron, albeit in more diplomatic terms, that they fully intend to get their way in any independence negotiations or they'll withhold independence from Scotland.

 

Anyway, I really don't see why northerners are opposing Scotland going its own way, apart from maybe being left with a far greater chance of Tory majorities.  The UK is run from London, Westminster concentrates on London and the South-East, when the Tories are in they look after their own, when Labour are in they spend most of their time trying to persuade Tories to vote for them, even when in opposition the Labour lot seem to be hell-bent on sucking up to the centre-right voters of the south and south-east rather than shoring up their core heartlands.  The only reason that both parties can treat the north with such contempt is that there are plenty of places that would just keep voting Labour even if Ed Miliband openly adopted every one of the Tories' policies.  Scotland were in exactly the same situation until the SNP became a proper political force, now they have a whole raft of devolved powers and on many areas can just bluntly ignore London, oh for that autonomy in the north but that was nice and neatly sabotaged within the Labour party when it came around under the last Labour government.

 

I thought the last government were quite keen on the idea of elected regional assemblies, but that the policy was ditched when the first one to be put to a referendum (in the north-east) was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate?

 

http://en.wikipedia....embly_(England)

 

If the north-east had voted yes in that referendum, who knows where we might be today in terms of devolved government.

 

But that's England's problem. 


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#175 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:56 PM

I thought the last government were quite keen on the idea of elected regional assemblies, but that the policy was ditched when the first one to be put to a referendum (in the north-east) was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate?

 

http://en.wikipedia....embly_(England)

 

If the north-east had voted yes in that referendum, who knows where we might be today in terms of devolved government.

 

But that's England's problem. 

I think ckn's point was that it was rejected as being a worthless talking shop rather than because there was no desire for regional government.



#176 John Drake

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:47 PM

I think ckn's point was that it was rejected as being a worthless talking shop rather than because there was no desire for regional government.

 

What's the alternative? A fully federal system with autonomous regions within England?


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#177 John Drake

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:52 PM

By the way, to add a bit of extra interest to the thread, I've added a poll to it, posing the actual question that will be put to the Scottish people in the referendum: Should Scotland be an independent country? You can only vote 'Yes' or 'No', so no equivocation allowed, though you don't have to be a Scot to vote in the TRL referendum! ;)


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#178 John Drake

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:55 PM

By the way, to add a bit of extra interest to the thread, I've added a poll to it, posing the actual question that will be put to the Scottish people in the referendum: Should Scotland be an independent country? You can only vote 'Yes' or 'No', so no equivocation allowed, though you don't have to be a Scot to vote in the TRL referendum! ;)

 

For the record, I voted no. Not because I think Scotland couldn't function as an independent country, but because I hope Scots will choose not to. Don't leave us, Scotland! :)


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#179 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:05 PM

Voted no.

 

Don't think everything will be as sweet and nice as the SNP say.

Don't think it will be as doom gloom and poverty as opponents say. 

 

But I do think we are better as one country.  As for being managed from London, how do other countries ever manage?  We are a tiny place with ideas above our geographical status!

 

Devo max would of won it at a landslide.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#180 gingerjon

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

I voted yes because if I was a Scottish person living in Scotchland that's the way I would go.


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