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Why the Hull clubs must merge


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#41 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:55 PM

But what could a merged club offer that Hull FC on their own can't at the moment? What have Hull KR got that we'd want?


8,000 fans
Hudgell's money
Elite players like Green and Taylor (the latter of which you wanted but couldn't afford)
Their share of access to the best elite juniors in the area
Their share of access to local commercial sponsorship

I could add a sensible name that people outside of rugby league circles understand but that would be glib and I'm trying to be friendly and inclusive. :) The new side should of course take on an entirely new name.

#42 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:15 PM

I've been there. It's a river and canal system that links Castleford to Wakefield. These are the principle towns in the Wakefield MDC which

 

1. Boasts a population of 326,000 people with a high density of RL fans and no serious soccer competition

2. Can already put up to 20,000 bums on seats at their three pro RL clubs in good times

3. Produce quality players at the level giants Leeds and Wigan produce players

4. Could have the backing of WMDC for a super stadium to house all these resources but

 

5. Choose to maintain three small clubs who the council won't back for a quality stadia

6. Run club finances that create unmanageable debts

7. Lose most of the best players to bigger clubs

8. Manage to halve the potential paying audience by never getting near winning anything and at times being in a lower division.

 

However this is apparently what "The fans" want. C'est la vie.

There is a serious soccer presence with amateur soccer plated throughout the area and a major constituency of leeds United support

 

Not sure about the 20,000 figure in fact I gave grave doubts

However I think neither of these are relevant

 

This is because I don't think soccer and rugby are really in competition and the potential for a new audience is great

 

The potential for a major club in the area to compete for honours on a consistent basis is enormous and could be one if the most exciting stories in the history of the game

But as you say 'the fans' won't have it due to resistance to change, narrow self interest, living in the past, and reactionary attitudes

What a shame


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#43 808tone

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:25 PM

I am FC fan, not through family traditions or from been brought up in the city or even living there. So maybe I don't have the fanatical 'never' merge streak about me.

I agree with what you say not just Hull but other clubs/areas as well as I want the sport to thrive and I perhaps naively believe the way to do this is to have 'super clubs' in big cities or for whole areas. This, I think will eventually get us proper sustainable professional clubs, not some and the rest maskerading as pro clubs now.

In having said that if York were in a position to get in top division I would be all over it, as it were. Although York after all is a big city not a small village ;)

York be a great day out if they were in SL.



#44 The Parksider

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:39 PM

There is a serious soccer presence - a major constituency of leeds United support

 

Not sure about the 20,000 figure in fact I gave grave doubts.

 

This is because I don't think soccer and rugby are really in competition and the potential for a new audience is great

 

The potential for a major club in the area to compete for honours on a consistent basis is enormous and could be one if the most exciting stories in the history of the game. But as you say 'the fans' won't have it due to resistance to change, narrow self interest, living in the past, and reactionary attitudes. What a shame

 

Anecdotally Ange lots of people watch both soccer and RL so there's a big crossover. Hetherington says RL competes with soccer but hey ho. The 20,000 quote is the 8K Wakefield got 2012, Cas's 7K in 2009 and the 5K estimate we tended to agree on on here Rovers could get in SL.

 

I think the argument "well many of those won't watch a merged club" is a disingenuous knee jerk reaction to the horror of losing "the dream" that just won't happen. Leeds, Wigan, Saints etc have it all stitched up.

 

Each club realistically needs over 10,000 fans to survive without a rich man. Even if half the fans that I quote did not go to a merged club, you still have to take into account how many new fans would respond. 

 

If half the 20K RL fans in the area stay at home and a couple of thousand new ones come on board you have one club, one clubs expenses, and 12,000 fans to pay the way.

 

But I think the "fans" think they have the power to dictate when in reality it's rich men who dictate what goes. The likes of Davey and Koukash don't need fans to compete in SL. The "fans" also don't get that corporate money - sponsors, advertisors, rich patrons etc are worth far more per head than them and a successful go ahead modern club can attract them. Finally there's the ground. Because the three clubs were all knocking on the council's door WMDC said no to all three. A merger may also get the council on board.

 

The old excuse that  "The fans" won't wear it is very lame, and if the fans have their way which they seem to have had for years then the fans are the ones dragging the game down. I suspect however these are the "noisy minority" who may well drive away any rich investors who fancies bringing RL into the modern world.


Edited by The Parksider, 04 December 2013 - 06:47 PM.


#45 superten

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:51 PM

HOW can you merge two of the biggest clubs in British rugby league. What is needed in Hull is a stadium just for rugby league shared between FC and KR around 22,000 capacity similar to saints ground but just a bit bigger. The KC is a great stadium but if hull city get there way making it bigger capacity it would not really be suitable for FC.Every one knows my super ten im not in favour of any mergers just structural leagues . 


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#46 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:55 PM

Anecdotally Ange lots of people watch both soccer and RL so there's a big crossover. Hetherington says RL competes with soccer but hey ho. The 20,000 quote is the 8K Wakefield got 2012, Cas's 7K in 2009 and the 5K estimate we tended to agree on on here Rovers could get in SL.

 

I think the argument "well many of those won't watch a merged club" is a disingenuous knee jerk reaction to the horror of losing "the dream" that just won't happen. Leeds, Wigan, Saints etc have it all stitched up.

 

Each club realistically needs over 10,000 fans to survive without a rich man. Even if half the fans that I quote did not go to a merged club, you still have to take into account how many new fans would respond. 

 

If half the 20K RL fans in the area stay at home and a couple of thousand new ones come on board you have one club, one clubs expenses, and 12,000 fans to pay the way.

 

But I think the "fans" think they have the power to dictate when in reality it's rich men who dictate what goes. The likes of Davey and Koukash don't need fans to compete in SL. The "fans" also don't get that corporate money - sponsors, advertisors, rich patrons etc are worth far more per head than them and a successful go ahead modern club can attract them. Finally there's the ground. Because the three clubs were all knocking on the council's door WMDC said no to all three. A merger may also get the council on board.

 

The old excuse that  "The fans" won't wear it is very lame, and if the fans have their way which they seem to have had for years then the fans are the ones dragging the game down. I suspect however these are the "noisy minority" who may well drive away any rich investors who fancies bringing RL into the modern world.

Yes


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#47 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:04 PM

Well you can count me as one, I would never watch a game of RL again in any form.

 

That would enrich your life no end then.


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#48 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:19 PM

You were advocating that London get 3 shares of Sky money thus depriving all the other clubs (including Catalans) of an increased share (1/12 rather than 1/14). Disagreeing with that is hardly "using money to save the heartlands at the expense of London". London would get their share like any other club. 

 

I would be happy to see SL clubs stay on what they are now for another year If it meant a real chance to save the London club, That's just my opinion. The SL chairmen would no doubt have their own ideas, And being they are the ones putting the money in, they will get to call the tune.

 

 What i really don't understand is this dogged attitude that says " If i can't have what i want I'm not having anything"   Club loyalty is great ! and i understand that it is a very big thing in some peoples life, maybe the most important in some peoples, But what when the club disapears, do you follow another one from close by ,or do you sit at home and cry. If you move to Oz do you stop wacthing the game cause you cant watch YOUR team.


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#49 charlie stones boots

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:21 PM

Just because there are two clubs in hull all you yogurt knitting buffoons always try and pick on us. There are 20000 supporters going to Hull and rovers a week. There is obviously a market for two clubs as both individually get bigger Gates than the majority in the super league. Leave us alone.
Both clubs have fantastic fans who put all other clubs away support to shame.
We dont want to merge we are happy to co exist. Go bug Warrington and Widnes or leigh and Wigan. See if they want to merge.
I may be old but forever faithful!

#50 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:32 PM

Just because there are two clubs in hull all you yogurt knitting buffoons always try and pick on us. There are 20000 supporters going to Hull and rovers a week. There is obviously a market for two clubs as both individually get bigger Gates than the majority in the super league. Leave us alone.
Both clubs have fantastic fans who put all other clubs away support to shame.
We dont want to merge we are happy to co exist. Go bug Warrington and Widnes or leigh and Wigan. See if they want to merge.
I may be old but forever faithful!

 

Strangely  enough although i am posting on a thread about Hull, It's my opinion that they would ( or will ) be way down the list of clubs needing to merge for the reasons you state, as well as the Derbys and such,

 KR may get to that stage sometime in the future, but as their fans will happily tell you , they will jump in the North sea first.


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#51 RSN

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:46 PM

I agree with the theory that we need one main club in each area to get as much money into one club as possible to obviously have one better academy rather two average ones ect but merging is not the way to do it.

Merging would be far to risky to do so. How can you create a business model on creating a merged club? There isn't a way of calculating how many fans would turn up and how much income you would get in a year. If you force a merger through you could potentially end up with one club which doesn't have the fans or finances to support itself (largely due to fans being loyal)

Merger enthusiast have to accept that a lot of fans would not support a merged side. Because they are supporting their side because of many different reasons. An 40 year old fan who has turned up to every game with his 65 year old dad for the last 35 years likely won't watch a merged side. You can't say they're holding the game back they are just supporting their team like the have done for decades. It's the loyalty in sport which makes it so passionate and enjoyable to watch. If we didn't have this loyalty and passion in the game between fans and their clubs but we would not have a game.

Saying people are holding the game back because they live and die by their club is quite frankly ridiculous. They are the reason why sport is one of the biggest money generating businesses on the planet. It's what makes it so enjoyable to watch.

Let's say there was a motorway between Barrow and West Cumbria. It would create potentially an area of 250,000 people within an easy 40 minute drive with eachother. A merger was being forced and they were going to get rid of Barrow. Would I support the new club if it would mean the end of Barrow RLFC. Not a chance I would. Why would I choose to support a team who my dad has spent the last 40 years watching and has played for, who I have supported all my life and want them to reach the highest level over some club who I have no affiliation to just because it will generate the most revenue. The fact is I probably wouldn't. Yet I'd be expected to because the club is in my area and I'd be holding the game back if I didn't.

There are many people like this who have ties to a club which they just couldn't let go. A lot of these clubs have been in existence for the best part of a century. They aren't holding the sport back they are sports fans and have connections to people which are big parts of peoples lives that they get passionate about it, it makes sport what it is.

Forcing a merger is just risky and probably won't work. I'm not an idiot I know that for our game to progress we need to have more money in the top clubs. But merging just isn't the way to do it as you can't underestimate the connection between fans and their clubs. You certainly can't slate them for doing so either.

If Hull FC ran themselves better for the earliest part of the 21st century there would be a more dominant Hull club to which DSK wants so badly. Unfortunately they've let Hull KR grow and grow until the point they are likely hindering them slightly. If they were run better they'd of done to KR what Leeds did to Bramley and Hunslet and what Wigan did to Leigh.

Natural elimination is how to do it. I will admit I wish there was a way to speed it up though.

#52 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:52 PM

I think you need to look at everything including mergers, relegation Licences etc and what it intends to do and look at the Pros and Cons. There is rarely a right or wrong thoughts/Posts. Each has their pros and cons. I personally dont think that a merger would actually do much. A couple of areas to look at
 
MONEY
It might bring more money in and more fans. But their is no guarentee that would actually happen. In fact you could end up pushing many fans away like what happened with mergers in Australia for example. Push enough people away and the merger would still be a club losing money and struggling to compete in SL. And if you have a money man whats to stop him walking away with the Club owing loads of money and then diasppearing? Or what happens if you end up with a money man like Hull City/Hull Tigers who has changed the name of the club and told the fans to go and die? And a club can have money and pretend to be doing well- Like Wigan and Leeds did before SL. but if its not managed properly then its pointless. For example for all of Wigans success in the late 80s and early 90s it very nearly killed them. And Leeds were big spenders but what did they win in the 80s and early 90s? And they ended up with debts. A money man is not the answer to a club being ran well or winning trophies. It may help but its not the main thing for a club to be doing well on and off the field.
 
Bigger Crowds
Again you may gain some new fans but you also risk pushing thousands away. The mergers of St. George and Illawarra and Wests and Balmain did see the clubs get higher crowds. But when you look at what both the merge clubs used to get and what the Merged club now gets you will find that the Merged clubs crowds are smaller even now than what the combined 2 clubs used to average. And the merger between North Sydney and Manly was simply a mess and the scars are very much there even now especially in the North Sydny/Central Coast area. To simply merge clubs does not automatically mean bigger crowds and certainly not what the combined total from the 2 clubs used to get. Often the Clubs have a proud tradition and fans that are extremely proud and one eyed about their club. To simply expect fans to accept a merger of their club with likely one of their greatest rivals is being blinkered and unrealistic.
 
As said a merger may or may not work. It may look like a good idea but all things need to be considered before even announcing suchathing as it can cause many problems even mentioning it and can force people to be forced away from a club including money men. Tony Gartland was one example when he mentioned that Fax could Merge with Bradford before SL came about. Rightly or wrongly he was met by a wall of anger and sadly received even hate mail and threats. A merger is an emotional topic and one not to be taken lightly


Here we go again with your non sequitur argument that if a merged team gets fewer fans than the 2 teams' fans combined then the merger has been a failure.

Here's how it actually works:

If a league's administrative body sees that 2 of its sides have 10K fans but their new minimum standard is 15K and if said sides are suitably proximate that it merges them and the new side achieves 15K fans then this has been a success.

A new space has been provided for an "expansion" side in a new target area, who may not achieve the minimum 15K right away (given their expansion nature) but who will do in time with partial help from the extra resources generated from new commercial enterprises in the new area and thanks probably also to a greater TV windfall from both broadcaster and advertising, given the new greater reach.

There are actually more than the previous 20K fans, just spread over a greater area. There may be fewer than 20K fans in the previous stronghold - this is regrettable but ultimately the choice of the stay away fans, who have still been offered elite sport (to a better standard than before, btw, given the greater spectator base of the new club) and as touched on in my piece are IMHO nothing more than spoilt kids.

#53 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:58 PM

I agree with the theory that we need one main club in each area to get as much money into one club as possible to obviously have one better academy rather two average ones ect but merging is not the way to do it.

Merging would be far to risky to do so. How can you create a business model on creating a merged club? There isn't a way of calculating how many fans would turn up and how much income you would get in a year. If you force a merger through you could potentially end up with one club which doesn't have the fans or finances to support itself (largely due to fans being loyal)

Merger enthusiast have to accept that a lot of fans would not support a merged side. Because they are supporting their side because of many different reasons. An 40 year old fan who has turned up to every game with his 65 year old dad for the last 35 years likely won't watch a merged side. You can't say they're holding the game back they are just supporting their team like the have done for decades. It's the loyalty in sport which makes it so passionate and enjoyable to watch. If we didn't have this loyalty and passion in the game between fans and their clubs but we would not have a game.

Saying people are holding the game back because they live and die by their club is quite frankly ridiculous. They are the reason why sport is one of the biggest money generating businesses on the planet. It's what makes it so enjoyable to watch.

Let's say there was a motorway between Barrow and West Cumbria. It would create potentially an area of 250,000 people within an easy 40 minute drive with eachother. A merger was being forced and they were going to get rid of Barrow. Would I support the new club if it would mean the end of Barrow RLFC. Not a chance I would. Why would I choose to support a team who my dad has spent the last 40 years watching and has played for, who I have supported all my life and want them to reach the highest level over some club who I have no affiliation to just because it will generate the most revenue. The fact is I probably wouldn't. Yet I'd be expected to because the club is in my area and I'd be holding the game back if I didn't.

There are many people like this who have ties to a club which they just couldn't let go. A lot of these clubs have been in existence for the best part of a century. They aren't holding the sport back they are sports fans and have connections to people which are big parts of peoples lives that they get passionate about it, it makes sport what it is.

Forcing a merger is just risky and probably won't work. I'm not an idiot I know that for our game to progress we need to have more money in the top clubs. But merging just isn't the way to do it as you can't underestimate the connection between fans and their clubs. You certainly can't slate them for doing so either.

If Hull FC ran themselves better for the earliest part of the 21st century there would be a more dominant Hull club to which DSK wants so badly. Unfortunately they've let Hull KR grow and grow until the point they are likely hindering them slightly. If they were run better they'd of done to KR what Leeds did to Bramley and Hunslet and what Wigan did to Leigh.

Natural elimination is how to do it. I will admit I wish there was a way to speed it up though.


"Natural elimination" sounds like the domain of savages and wild beasts to me. I say we achieve the new parity by more mature, inclusive human reasoning and explanation of the process personally.

It's interesting that with one breath you sing the praises of fine loyal fans being trodden on by merger suggestion yet with another speak of natural elimination. I guess these fans are fine, loyal and downtrodden only if they are not ripe for elimination by whatever measures you yourself seem to have dreamed up. Would that be about the size of it?

#54 Padge

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:09 PM

I know.

But what could a merged club offer that Hull FC on their own can't at the moment? What have Hull KR got that we'd want?

I literally don't see the point.

 

Which goes back to my old argument, eventually in all these areas where clubs sit on each others doorsteps and fight directly for local resources only one club will be the eventual SL winner.

 

Hull and Hull KR are not in a battle with the rest of RL to be the two top dogs, they are in a battle with each other to be top dog in Hull.

 

What Hull KR have that Hull FC want is  money and resources in 'Humberside'. This isn't just a Hull thing it happens elsewhere. 

 

The philosophy behind merging clubs isn't about merging fan bases, that is the mistake fans make by believing it is.



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#55 Padge

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:13 PM

York be a great day out if they were in SL.

 

So why was it never a great day out before when they were in the first division, what has changed apart from Div1 being called SL?



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#56 Les Tonks Sidestep

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:17 PM

There is a serious soccer presence with amateur soccer plated throughout the area and a major constituency of leeds United support

 

Not sure about the 20,000 figure in fact I gave grave doubts

However I think neither of these are relevant

 

This is because I don't think soccer and rugby are really in competition and the potential for a new audience is great

 

The potential for a major club in the area to compete for honours on a consistent basis is enormous and could be one if the most exciting stories in the history of the game

But as you say 'the fans' won't have it due to resistance to change, narrow self interest, living in the past, and reactionary attitudes

What a shame

 

It's not just the 'fans' though.

 

As Parky quite rightly point out the fans don't really have any influence on decisions made by the 'owners' of clubs. If there was a big 'moneyman' in the 'Calder' area they would surely have come along by now, offered his money to either force through a merger or more easily take over one of the clubs and effectively annihilate the local opposition with (according to Parky's theory) all the 'fans' flocking to watch the newly successful 'big' club. I don't see any evidence of any of that happening or indeed have been in the offing over the last 17 years. Nor do I see any evidence of the Chairman of any RL club looking to merge......



#57 Padge

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:24 PM

It's not just the 'fans' though.

 

As Parky quite rightly point out the fans don't really have any influence on decisions made by the 'owners' of clubs. If there was a big 'moneyman' in the 'Calder' area they would surely have come along by now, offered his money to either force through a merger or more easily take over one of the clubs and effectively annihilate the local opposition with (according to Parky's theory) all the 'fans' flocking to watch the newly successful 'big' club. I don't see any evidence of any of that happening or indeed have been in the offing over the last 17 years. Nor do I see any evidence of the Chairman of any RL club looking to merge......

 

There's so much wrong with that that I really don't know where to start.


Edited by Padge, 04 December 2013 - 10:39 PM.


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#58 Northern Sol

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:22 PM

I would be happy to see SL clubs stay on what they are now for another year If it meant a real chance to save the London club, That's just my opinion. The SL chairmen would no doubt have their own ideas, And being they are the ones putting the money in, they will get to call the tune.

 

 What i really don't understand is this dogged attitude that says " If i can't have what i want I'm not having anything"   Club loyalty is great ! and i understand that it is a very big thing in some peoples life, maybe the most important in some peoples, But what when the club disapears, do you follow another one from close by ,or do you sit at home and cry. If you move to Oz do you stop wacthing the game cause you cant watch YOUR team.

Two of the clubs would not "stay on what they are on". They would lose their Sky funding.

 

As for your second paragraph, some people are more rooted in one place than other people I suppose. I'd watch my local team wherever I was but I move around a lot. Some people still live in the town they were born in and their grandparents are buried in the local cemetry.


Edited by Northern Sol, 04 December 2013 - 10:24 PM.


#59 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:24 PM

There's so much wrong with that that I really know where to start.

 

Give it a go Dave 

I'm all 'tears of the Calder' ed out


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#60 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:40 PM

Here we go again with your non sequitur argument that if a merged team gets fewer fans than the 2 teams' fans combined then the merger has been a failure.

Here's how it actually works:

If a league's administrative body sees that 2 of its sides have 10K fans but their new minimum standard is 15K and if said sides are suitably proximate that it merges them and the new side achieves 15K fans then this has been a success.

A new space has been provided for an "expansion" side in a new target area, who may not achieve the minimum 15K right away (given their expansion nature) but who will do in time with partial help from the extra resources generated from new commercial enterprises in the new area and thanks probably also to a greater TV windfall from both broadcaster and advertising, given the new greater reach.

There are actually more than the previous 20K fans, just spread over a greater area. There may be fewer than 20K fans in the previous stronghold - this is regrettable but ultimately the choice of the stay away fans, who have still been offered elite sport (to a better standard than before, btw, given the greater spectator base of the new club) and as touched on in my piece are IMHO nothing more than spoilt kids.

I believe these are the crowds from 2013 in SL

 

Leeds... 15197... (14948)
Wigan... 14545... (16043)
Hull... 11680... (11885)
St Helens... 11345... (14087)
Warrington... 10633... (11452)
Bradford... 8563... (11761)
Catalan... 8363... (9385)
Wakefield... 7972... (8172)
Hull KR... 7495... (7786)
Huddersfield... 6368... (7709)
Castleford... 6306... (6633)
Widnes... 6015... (5977)
Salford... 3125... (5503)

London... 2213... (2808)

 

Hull FC and Hull KR are getting better crowds than a number of other SL clubs. And how many clubs are even close to getting your 15K minimum? And even bringing in either a Championship club or some made up fantasy club placed in Wales or somehwere they will not even get close to matching either Hull clubs for many years in crowd attendance or the money coming in via fans and sponsors. And Sky are not going to offer any more money to help bring in a new club like News did with Melbourne Storm. The fantasy that a Merged club will be better than Hull FC and Hull KR and offer so many positives is just a fantasy based on emptyness. If we are going to see mergers I think you would see other clubs merge well before the Hull clubs. The SL clubs have shown they NEED the Sky money to survive and wont allow London or any other development team get a bigger share than the rest. This fantasy that Sky are looking for mergers and looking to bring in new clubs is just that- a fantasy. 






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