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Bradford Bulls - not sounding good


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#41 paulalmanack

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:41 AM

Totally agree about the old stadiums and teams struggling, this theory holds up in all sports, its like just throwing money away.

#42 roughyedspud

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:49 AM

make sally bolton the bradford CEO......simple


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#43 roughyedspud

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:11 PM

after shes sorted out world peace and hunger of course....


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#44 The Parksider

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:21 PM

If that was the case they wouldn't be in a mess £2.2m + at the gate plus sponsorships, merchandise, food/drink and sky money would see them through a £2.64m wage bill, a would bet the average per head would be nearer £10 + vat

 

I'll go with your £10 a head, but it really was not the point. The suggestion was for them to start again in CC1 and IMVHO Bulls and the game need to try to keep as many fans on board as possible.

 

Anyway on £10 a head 5,000 crowds we get £650K add SKY money £1.2M = well short of £2M. I still have my suspicions about the fans costings for Leigh or any like club to be able to afford SL....Back to Bradford...



#45 sweaty craiq

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

I'll go with your £10 a head, but it really was not the point. The suggestion was for them to start again in CC1 and IMVHO Bulls and the game need to try to keep as many fans on board as possible.

 

Anyway on £10 a head 5,000 crowds we get £650K add SKY money £1.2M = well short of £2M. I still have my suspicions about the fans costings for Leigh or any like club to be able to afford SL....Back to Bradford...

 

Can Hudds afford SL without Davy? Less than 50% of Leighs 2014 income will be from gate money, and that's with only £90k from rfl funds btw, I am sure Fev and Fax will be similar

 

You are correct about keeping fans on board, the current system doesn't do that does it.


Edited by sweaty craiq, 05 December 2013 - 12:45 PM.


#46 Konkrete

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:58 PM

Well, you can't say it's boring being a Bull can you.  I can tolerate a little bit of incompetence if the intentions and commitment are solid, but that seems not to have been the case with OK and Whitcut.  I particularly don't like the sound of these undeclared loans and RW allegedly selling Bateman to the Pies without telling anyone as the door closed behind him.  You rarely get full value when acting in haste, or spite for that matter.

 

What I really want now is a statement from OK responding to what was revealed at the meeting last night.  He was feted at Odsal as the saviour (small 's'), and he accepted the mantle and revelled in it.  If he's taken all that was given to him on false pretences then shame on him.

 

At the moment the only person running the club that I trust is Robbie.  That's not to say the new board are untrustworthy, but that their starting point is sadly coloured by those that have gone before.

 

On the playing side I would expect some casualties but probably not as many as people are suggesting.  The board did say that the playing staff budget was ring-fenced from cuts, although it's clear that they will take up opportunities to reduce it if they materialise.  What they do need to be careful of is being uncompetitive on the field.  At the moment that's all that remains for the fans, it's the one remaining keystone, and they should bear that in mind very carefully before off-loading players like Sammut and BK.

 

Unless I've got it very wrong, Peter Hood's action of selling the Odsal lease to the RFL is looking like a masterstroke at the moment.  And so I'm guessing that this gives us a better than even chance of survival.


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#47 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:07 PM

Can Hudds afford SL without Davy? Less than 50% of Leighs 2014 income will be from gate money, and that's with only £90k from rfl funds btw, I am sure Fev and Fax will be similar

 

You are correct about keeping fans on board, the current system doesn't do that does it.

 

My honest answer to the Hudd's thing is IMO no, whether they will in the near future Who knows, I am privy to no info.

I don't know how it would be do-able but i would like to see SL step in  some form to help sort the Bradford thing, One thing they really need to do as far as i can see, is get away from Odsal, I don't dislike it but it must cost a mint to run. The thing with the Bulls is , you don't have to go back decades to find their success, All those Fans are not that long gone.

 

As someone has said CC clubs with ambition take note, SL is a whole different ball game financially.


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#48 StixRooster

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:16 PM

The new ground thing is a very good case in point.

 

In the round ball game, almost every club that has gone that route in recent years has prospered. I'll use Rotherham as the most recent example, playing out of town, at DVS, we got crowds scraping 3 - 3500 and just about survived on that plus the scant commercial income. Prior to that, we'd been in a dump of a stadium, paying exorbitant rent and spending loads on upkeep, with little commercial income.

 

Since the new ground has been built, crowds have doubled, there's been a HUGE increase in commercial income and there's been a promotion. Even with lesser results due to that promotion, and higher ticket prices, crowds have held up.

 

OK, this has been possible due to a new owner in part and much better management from the new directors. So all any club needs is a sugar daddy then surely? Nope, it needs the right one, and the drive to make it happen.

 

As Snellins have shown, a new stadium works wonders. Punters have come to expect decent stadia now, decent clean facilities plus a half decent team to watch. It's a combination that's needed, and Odsal, bless it, probably isn't up to the job.


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#49 hindle xiii

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:29 PM

Trying to get a new stadium at Odsal? Now there's a new idea.


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On Odsal Top baht 'at.


#50 Amber Avenger

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:41 PM

There is no doubt that Odsal is a millstone around the clubs neck, but I don’t think the “get a new stadium” solution would solve the problems we are in. (Bear in mind during the cheap season ticket year people weren’t so bothered about the facilities, the team on the pitch and the club itself has a lot to answer for in that regard, not that a new stadium wouldn’t help)

 

The most realistic option is to move to Valley Parade – which I can see happening if I'm honest, but not anytime in the next couple of years – but boost crowds is the last thing it’ll do. There are plenty of folk who cut their nose off to spite their face last time we went there and that was when we were the best club team in the world. In some ways I don’t think our crowds have ever been the same since that move. I don’t say I agree with people who hold this view, but the fact is it exists so the business would have to bare that in mind. I think a move to Valley Parade at this moment in time would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for a lot of fans though.

 

The other options are to redevelop Odsal, which has been on the cards whilst both my parents and grandparents have supported the club, or a new stadium elsewhere in Bradford. Where exactly, answers on a postcard please…

 

With that in mind, the club will have to do the best they have with Odsal as it is currently, especially with it being under RFL control


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#51 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:54 PM

I've never been a fan of Bradford and how they've been run over the last decade but the new lot seem to at least have honesty to their credit.  As with most situations, a frank exposure of the uncomfortable truth rather than perpetual drip-fed bad news is a far better scenario for everyone, it allows people to look at the situation and either address it or move on.  The other benefit is that it's still off-season, hopefully at least plasters will be openly in place to address the points raised yesterday before the season kicks off.  A tough season of living well within their means and hoping they evade the compulsory relegation at the end of 2014.  As they said, they'll be getting their full RFL funding again for the 2015 season along with, hopefully, renewed other income sources.

 

Bradford fixing their problems is probably entirely in their own hands, a completely different scenario to London who are hoping for an external miracle.

 

But, on the London thread, you wrote that we shouldn't discuss Bradford? If, say, London had an owner who earned, say, 20m a year and wanted to discuss with the RFL how best to leave that club debt free and with new investors, wouldn't they be far better off than Bradford without one? Particularly given the recent demonstration of the huge appetite for league in London?  

Bradford's problems have been, and remain, that they don't have a Hughes or Moran to write the sorts of cheques they need to move from where they are to where they'd like to be. I was sent Wigan's accounts for 2012 the other day, as a shareholder. We made a small profit, again, against a £6m turnover, with a £3m plus wage bill. Now, IL can slice and dice his business interests and accounts any way he wants, but the turnover and wage bill sound reasonable to me. If we say £5m is the cost to run a club to top level SL standard, then the Bulls have always been up against it. They have no problems that an owner rich and willing enough to plough in 1m a year can't fix. 

If they don't then aren't they faced with going in ever decreasing circles?  

Every club in the game owes Bradford a debt of gratitude for what they did at the start of SL to lead us into the brighter, newer era, and as ever I hope they get through 2014 and onto higher ground.

Looking ahead, and the more I look at the game post World Cup, would a 10 team SL with 2 French teams be so bad? I'd say that'd be the maximum who could afford a 5m turnover. SL2 could have some fantastic teams - maybe even the BBC would like a slice?

Finally, I am concerned about the discussion of the Bateman transfer. I hope against hope Wigan acted above board, but I couldn't quite unravel who was being accused of doing what there.



#52 Viking Warrior

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:59 PM

during our game at odsal last season the terracing gave way under my sons foot causing him to sprain his ankle. odsal is a tired old ground which is falling deeper into decay every year..............
"Why is Napoleon crying ?" said one sailor to the other, "poor ###### thinks he's being exiled to st helens" came the reply.



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#53 Amber Avenger

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:07 PM

Finally, I am concerned about the discussion of the Bateman transfer. I hope against hope Wigan acted above board, but I couldn't quite unravel who was being accused of doing what there.

 

I think the insinuation of blame is at Ryan Whiticut selling him without the knowledge of the rest of the board, not at Wigan. I’m sure as far as Wigan was concerned it was all legit as he was Bulls top brass at the time.


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#54 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:54 PM

How was mr Kahn allowed to run up these debts and borrow money against the club it could not afford to pay back. I would of thought after the previous debacle the rfl would of had a close eye on the accounts after all they passed them off to extend the bulls lisence in super league.

#55 Ponterover

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:51 PM

How was mr Kahn allowed to run up these debts and borrow money against the club it could not afford to pay back. I would of thought after the previous debacle the rfl would of had a close eye on the accounts after all they passed them off to extend the bulls lisence in super league.

 

I think they did have their eyes on it, hence Mr Khan's sudden "illness".


Edited by Ponterover, 05 December 2013 - 06:23 PM.


#56 Dave T

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:23 PM

How was mr Kahn allowed to run up these debts and borrow money against the club it could not afford to pay back. I would of thought after the previous debacle the rfl would of had a close eye on the accounts after all they passed them off to extend the bulls lisence in super league.

This is an independent company, the RFL can't stop them going to the bank or providing their own money as loans to their own company.

 

This is the challenge the RFL have - they can only see the plans, ultimately owners can then pretty much do as they please. Once it all comes out they just ###### off.



#57 Mushy

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:15 AM

I've never been a fan of Bradford and how they've been run over the last decade but the new lot seem to at least have honesty to their credit. As with most situations, a frank exposure of the uncomfortable truth rather than perpetual drip-fed bad news is a far better scenario for everyone, it allows people to look at the situation and either address it or move on. The other benefit is that it's still off-season, hopefully at least plasters will be openly in place to address the points raised yesterday before the season kicks off. A tough season of living well within their means and hoping they evade the compulsory relegation at the end of 2014. As they said, they'll be getting their full RFL funding again for the 2015 season along with, hopefully, renewed other income sources.

Bradford fixing their problems is probably entirely in their own hands, a completely different scenario to London who are hoping for an external miracle.

Or if I was really investing in Bradford I would look to ensure that they did stay up and eventually thrive. If they have a poor side and get relegated then surely that's poor business too. I can't see any club in any sport moving to the top without a fair amount of speculation and deep pockets. This doesn't mean that systematic losses are acceptable, and that clubs shouldn't aim to live within their means, but the best option ifntou want success is to invest and grow their means.

That's the difference in balancing the books in the short term and building a successful long term business.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Gateshead for instance were prepared to invest in building a SL business by ultimately their pockets weren't deep enough and the lack of equal SL funding exasperated problem (and of course there were a host of other issues).

It sounds like the new Bulls owners don't have deep enough pockets to take them back to the top, in which case accepting their new lower positionl in the pecking order is the limit of what they can achieve. I suspect it'll take a few years and another change of ownership but Bradford will eventually be back at the top.

Edited by Mushy, 06 December 2013 - 08:15 AM.


#58 Saintslass

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:36 AM


As Snellins have shown, a new stadium works wonders. Punters have come to expect decent stadia now, decent clean facilities plus a half decent team to watch. It's a combination that's needed, and Odsal, bless it, probably isn't up to the job.

Don't forget, though, that when McManus took over at St Helens we were over £2 million in debt and on the verge of administration.  We were fortunate in having a man in charge who was not only financially astute and pretty ruthless but who had very rich and equally astute contacts in the world of business and finance. 

 

I think it will be a while before Langtree Park makes a profit if indeed it ever does.  It appears to be well used for other events but whether it is being well used enough or not is another matter.



#59 The Parksider

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:46 AM

It sounds like the new Bulls owners don't have deep enough pockets to take them back to the top, in which case accepting their new lower positionl in the pecking order is the limit of what they can achieve. I suspect it'll take a few years and another change of ownership but Bradford will eventually be back at the top.

 

Cracking post, and a fair summary IMHO.

 

This "live within your means" thing is OK but in reality many successful clubs are where they are, as are thousands of businesses ,because they did not do that very thing. The problem for RL seems to be that in business if you buy a machine for 100K and it churns out cheap quality product you can sell all over the country/world you get a fantastic return.

 

If the Bulls spent £100K on importing an Aussie to improve the team it would hardly put another bum on a seat. As you say this is a deep pockets game in which the investor has to be prepared to pocket pretty much guaranteed heavy losses.

 

So what does live within your means mean in reality for Bradford Bulls? Will living within their means next year see Bradfords crowds rise?? stabilise at 8563?? or perhaps tail off towards 7,000.

 

Then what? Adjust downwards, sell another player or two and live within lesser means?? Just where does living within one's means end because one thing is for sure - you can't stand still in business.



#60 sweaty craiq

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 09:49 AM

How can anyone borrow from a bank anymore against an asset worth nothing? or did OK do the standard Directors Loan investment






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