Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 401 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, full colour, in-depth coverage from the grassroots through to the international game.
Click here for the digital edition or just download the Rugby League World app from Apple Newsstand or Google Play now.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 401
/ View a Gallery of all our previous 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 401
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Nelson Mandela - other subjects


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
264 replies to this topic

#181 Martyn Sadler

Martyn Sadler

    League Publications Ltd

  • Moderator
  • 2,773 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:18 AM

Mandela was a hero of the left long before he was released and became a world figure.  

Unfortunately there were quite a lot of other "heroes of the left" who didn't work out quite as well as Mandela.

 

Robert Mugabe was one such.

 

He would eventually be responsible for the slaughter of thousands of Ndebele in Zimbabwe.

 

And of course it would be easy to point out tyrants favoured by the right who were equally psychotic.



#182 Saint Billinge

Saint Billinge
  • Coach
  • 2,652 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:37 AM

Unfortunately there were quite a lot of other "heroes of the left" who didn't work out quite as well as Mandela.

 

Robert Mugabe was one such.

 

He would eventually be responsible for the slaughter of thousands of Ndebele in Zimbabwe.

 

And of course it would be easy to point out tyrants favoured by the right who were equally psychotic.

 

Some tyrants eventually see their day in court while others are never brought to task! 



#183 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,145 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 12:49 PM

I think they did on fuel

And the Fox hunting thing was rushed and isn't over yet

 

It's immaterial anyway

The point being contrary to what you say they took to the streets

I'm not really sure that you could call the fuel tax protests as "right wing". I imagine that a lot of the protestors were middle-of-the-road, left wing or non-voters.

 

In any case two examples makes it something that happens extremely rarely.



#184 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:30 PM

I'm not sure that sanctions were ever in the interests of the general populace. Sanctions should have been targetted solely at the individuals running the country.


Sanctions were called for by all legitimate leaders of the SA people only 2 major developed nations felt the post-colonial need to tell them they are wrong and the white Europeans know better!

LUNEW.jpg


#185 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,145 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:35 PM

Sanctions were called for by all legitimate leaders of the SA people only 2 major developed nations felt the post-colonial need to tell them they are wrong and the white Europeans know better!

There were no "legitimate leaders" in South Africa until the end of apartheid. Nobody knew how popular the various different political parties were.

 

It's generally  a dangerous idea to do what the opposition want you to do. That's what started the mess in Iraq. All the "legitimate leaders" in Iraq wanted a US-led invasion and white Europeans knew better.


Edited by Northern Sol, 12 December 2013 - 04:42 PM.


#186 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:56 PM

There were no "legitimate leaders" in South Africa until the end of apartheid. Nobody knew how popular the various different political parties were.


Speaks volumes!

LUNEW.jpg


#187 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,145 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:14 PM

Speaks volumes!

I am surprised that you don't share my view that legitimacy comes from democratic elections.

 

Another example of why exiles groups / the opposition should not always be listened to - the reason for the US' continued sanctions against Cuba is pressure from the Cuban community in Florida, an important "swing state".



#188 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,018 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:51 PM

I don't think anyone would deny that Peter Hain played a leading role in the Anti-Apartheid movement.

 

And nobody should doubt his ability. I thought he was a very effective Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He brokered the deal that finally saw the IRA decommission its arms in 2007, and he deserves credit for that.

 

But I still doubt whether Hain could tell us Mandela's opinions "for a fact".

 

Hain seems to be quite unpopular among his fellow MPs, to judge by the way very few of them voted for him in the 2007 deputy leadership election. He spent far more than his rivals on that campaign and got into trouble for not declaring all his donations.

 

His weakness is that he is very self-regarding, as this article about his autobiography, which is generally sympathetic to him, seems to suggest. http://www.theguardi...puty-leadership

 

As the article says, in his autobiography: "He is forever quoting colleagues, civil servants, officials and the like telling him how brilliant he is, so I ask if he feels he's never yet been as successful as he ought rightfully to have been."

 

The desire to be seen as brilliant is a serious weakness in him, and is consistent with him claiming to be able to know Mandela's thoughts.

If as the paper says Mandela was a family friend why wouldn't he know?  


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#189 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,018 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:53 PM

Unfortunately there were quite a lot of other "heroes of the left" who didn't work out quite as well as Mandela.

 

Robert Mugabe was one such.

 

He would eventually be responsible for the slaughter of thousands of Ndebele in Zimbabwe.

 

And of course it would be easy to point out tyrants favoured by the right who were equally psychotic.

But this thread is not about them.  This thread is not about heroes of the left, it's about Nelson Mandela and how the right after dissing him for twenty years, tried to muscle in on his popularity and claim him as one of their own.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#190 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,018 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:57 PM

I'm not really sure that you could call the fuel tax protests as "right wing". I imagine that a lot of the protestors were middle-of-the-road, left wing or non-voters.

 

In any case two examples makes it something that happens extremely rarely.

Do you ever admit you'v e been wrong. TBH I thought it was only the Pope that claimed to be infallible. The hunt protestors took to the streets and even invaded parliament because they couldn't get their own way.  Even today they are breaking the law willy-nilly and no one is doing anything about it. At a guess the local MFH and Chief Constables are members of the same lodge. Presumably if someone did try to prosecute them they'd be back on the streets again. Generally the right don't protest and picket because they don't need to.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#191 Bob8

Bob8
  • Coach
  • 9,453 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:35 PM

Trojan, the Pope does not claim in be infallible.

 

In the 60's Mandela was considered a terrorist, but the 80's he was generally considered a prisoner of conscience.  This was not a radical viewpoint, it was fairly normal.  I rarely heard anyone who thought otherwise (though there were some).  Thatcher and Mandela may have spoken for many hours, they may even have had a little snog, but Mandela very pointedly thanked "the British people" rather than Britain.  Sanctions against South Africa were generally led by the British public as Thatcher was very much against them.

 

It was a long time ago, and does not reflect on the modern Tory or Labour party.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#192 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,145 posts

Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:36 PM

Do you ever admit you'v e been wrong. TBH I thought it was only the Pope that claimed to be infallible. The hunt protestors took to the streets and even invaded parliament because they couldn't get their own way.  Even today they are breaking the law willy-nilly and no one is doing anything about it. At a guess the local MFH and Chief Constables are members of the same lodge. Presumably if someone did try to prosecute them they'd be back on the streets again. Generally the right don't protest and picket because they don't need to.

Not true. Lots of laws are aimed at taking money away from the rich. Inheritance tax, for instance, was created with the express purpose of breaking up the "great estates". Rates were deemed to be unfair as many people didn't pay them but got to vote for parties that would set high rates that other people would pay. Neither saw much in the way of organised protests because generally the right sees protesting as a waste of time. The countryside alliance's protests proved this. Protests don't change policy, votes change governments.



#193 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,145 posts

Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:43 PM

But this thread is not about them.  This thread is not about heroes of the left, it's about Nelson Mandela and how the right after dissing him for twenty years, tried to muscle in on his popularity and claim him as one of their own.

For me it is about a few individuals highlighting apartheid South Africa as the only evil regime that existed in the 80s and being generally appalled that not everybody thought this way. Hain seems obsessed with South Africa, which is understandable since he is from there, but he tries to generalise this into "I care about oppressive regimes" when he did FA about other regimes. He doesn't have to care about other countries but it's odious that he claims that Britain helped East Timor and Macedonia that's muscling in. At least Thatcher did something for Mandela.



#194 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,701 posts

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:07 PM

The BBC man apparently said 'significant', irrespective of whether the individual's impact was good or bad.
 
Therefore, Hitler, Ghandi, Churchill, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Lenin, Stalin, Kruschev, Gorbachev, Bin Laden, Tojo and Mao Tse Teung were far more significant than Mandela.
 
South Africa has a population of ~50million. Less than the number that died through the activities of World War 2.


It is so simplistic to look at it as a numbers game. It's just like when people claim the most evil people were the ones that killed the most, therefore Mao Zedong was the most evil ever and all the genocidal maniacs are nowhere near as evil because they are restricted by not having as many millions to kill as Mao did.

Mandela didn't only influence events in South Africa, he has been an inspirational figure throughout the world whether or not you think it is justified. Your definition of significant seems to revolve almost exclusively around whether they were involved in a big war. Maybe Mandela should have bombed the US triggering a huge invasion to be classed as significant?

That's not to agree that he was the most significant 'statesman' (Wikipedia: A statesman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level) of the last 100 years. It is after all a subjective matter and I think it is hard to argue that he was but you cannot assert that he wasn't because South Africa is a relatively small country. .

Edited by Maximus Decimus, 13 December 2013 - 10:07 PM.


#195 SE4Wire

SE4Wire
  • Coach
  • 655 posts

Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:27 AM

I did not use those words that Trojan said I did.I did not imply those words that Trojan said I did. No person could put that interpretation on anything I have said.


Sorry that was my point nearly made a clarification afterwards. The idea that either of you said it is really misquoting and putting words in mouths to an absurd degree. Apologies for any confusion/offence caused.

#196 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,145 posts

Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:49 AM

It is so simplistic to look at it as a numbers game. It's just like when people claim the most evil people were the ones that killed the most, therefore Mao Zedong was the most evil ever and all the genocidal maniacs are nowhere near as evil because they are restricted by not having as many millions to kill as Mao did.

Mandela didn't only influence events in South Africa, he has been an inspirational figure throughout the world whether or not you think it is justified. Your definition of significant seems to revolve almost exclusively around whether they were involved in a big war. Maybe Mandela should have bombed the US triggering a huge invasion to be classed as significant?

That's not to agree that he was the most significant 'statesman' (Wikipedia: A statesman is usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level) of the last 100 years. It is after all a subjective matter and I think it is hard to argue that he was but you cannot assert that he wasn't because South Africa is a relatively small country. .

I'm not really sure that Mandela really influenced anyone much. Millions of people admired him but there wasn't really another South Africa out there where he might have inspired a new generation of rebels. Ian Smith's Rhodesia had come to an end long ago, segregation in the USA was a distant memory and slavery in the Caribbean was ancient history. He was probably the last great black civil rights leader and it more or less ends with him.

 

Now contrast that with Lenin. He was the first of his line and although few people today dream of being the Lenin of their country, they certainly did at one time. Gandhi, likewise, was one of the first of independence leaders. People outside India followed his lead in demanding independence from their colonising power.

 

Khrushchev wasn't really involved in a great war but he had a huge role in lowering tensions during the Cold War and this had consequences not just for his own country but for the whole of Europe and the US as well. Now I don't know of anything that Mandela did that had much economic or political impact outside South Africa once he was President.



#197 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,720 posts

Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:35 AM

Points scoring against other political parties or non-forum individuals is probably fair game on threads like this but we do take a dim view when people make petty points scoring posts against other forum members.  If you had hard evidence to back it up then I might turn a bit of a blind eye but to make suppositions or guesses about what someone might have said isn't acceptable.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#198 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:44 AM

At least Thatcher did something for Mandela.


Really?

http://www.theguardi...mandela-release

LUNEW.jpg


#199 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,018 posts

Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:35 PM

At least Thatcher did something for Mandela.

Apparently, according to the documents released today, she didn't.  It's all been an attempt by the Tories to claim credit for something they'd no right to claim credit for at all..

http://www.theguardi...mandela-release


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#200 Saintslass

Saintslass
  • Coach
  • 4,301 posts

Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:41 PM

Apparently, according to the documents released today, she didn't.  It's all been an attempt by the Tories to claim credit for something they'd no right to claim credit for at all..

http://www.theguardi...mandela-release

That's according to the left leaning Guardian's version of events anyway.  I particularly like this paragraph of the article:

 

She did, however, mention Mandela during a private 40-minute discussion before the official meeting started, but this was only in a context that made it seem as if the imprisonment of the African National Congress leader was on a par with the case of four South African officials from Armscor, the state-owned weapons manufacturer, and four members of a Coventry engineering firm who had been charged in Britain with breaking the UN arms embargo.

 

Either the meeting wasn't private or the Gruniad is guessing what was discussed at the meeting!  (My hunch is that it was the latter given the context posited in the paragraph)

 

There may be 'scant' evidence of Thatcher presenting on behalf of Mandella, but clearly there is evidence or else there would be nothing 'scant' about it. 


Edited by Saintslass, 03 January 2014 - 08:42 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users