Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 401 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, full colour, in-depth coverage from the grassroots through to the international game.
Click here for the digital edition or just download the Rugby League World app from Apple Newsstand or Google Play now.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 401
/ View a Gallery of all our previous 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 401
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Nelson Mandela - other subjects


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
264 replies to this topic

#41 Mumby Magic

Mumby Magic
  • Coach
  • 3,157 posts

Posted 06 December 2013 - 09:49 PM

Hard to say. Mandela said he dragged his feet and negotiated in bad faith. Curiously he prefered Botha.

Does sound strange, yet Botha gave restrictions he didn't acceptand was recognised as a political racist yet De Klerk negotiated, and Mandela allowed him to serve under him.

 

 

Seems as straightforward as a day at Red Hall.


Lilly, Jacob and Isaac, what my life is about. Although our route through life is not how it should be, I am a blessed man.


#42 ehbandit

ehbandit
  • Coach
  • 590 posts

Posted 06 December 2013 - 10:17 PM

a friend got me thinking today when he told me he believed Nelson Mandela was very similar to Gerry Adams. I'm not sure what I think

#43 Lounge Room Lizard

Lounge Room Lizard
  • Coach
  • 6,413 posts

Posted 06 December 2013 - 10:17 PM

Personally I dont think he is/was this great Saint the media have painted of him. He had a number of flaws and made some big errors both politically and the way he treated his family, especially his first wife. He also was the head of an ANC party that was willing to use violence and as far as I know didnt condemn them actions but neither did he order any attacks. I just picture him as a typical politician who did things in any way he could to get things done, even if they sometimes were not morally correct. And like I said he has admitted he made some grave errors and no doubt he had some burdens that he carried for his whole life. But to say he was a Terrorist for me is wrong.  Mandela is really just a human being who like all of us who made mistakes and some decisions that he will always regret. But the way the media carry on is just so way over the top. But thats typical of the media


Edited by Lounge Room Lizard, 06 December 2013 - 10:18 PM.


#44 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,153 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:38 AM

Personally I dont think he is/was this great Saint the media have painted of him. He had a number of flaws and made some big errors both politically and the way he treated his family, especially his first wife. He also was the head of an ANC party that was willing to use violence and as far as I know didnt condemn them actions but neither did he order any attacks. I just picture him as a typical politician who did things in any way he could to get things done, even if they sometimes were not morally correct. And like I said he has admitted he made some grave errors and no doubt he had some burdens that he carried for his whole life. But to say he was a Terrorist for me is wrong. Mandela is really just a human being who like all of us who made mistakes and some decisions that he will always regret. But the way the media carry on is just so way over the top. But thats typical of the media


The ANC saw no option, after Sharpeville, other than armed struggle. Political options were closed off, the regime was increasingly violent and international political pressure was very limited. Interestingly, many of the key 'Generals' of Umkhonto we Sizwe were white - Joe Slovo, Ronnie Kasrils, Marion Sparg....

LUNEW.jpg


#45 Shadow

Shadow
  • Coach
  • 7,988 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:38 AM

  Mandela is really just a human being who like all of us who made mistakes and some decisions that he will always regret. 

I think to say or imply Nelson Mandela was like all of us is a long way from the truth.  A remarkable man who had a genuine and lasting impact on the lives of tens of millions, a man who commanded the respect of his allies and opponents and a man who realised the importance of understanding and forgiveness over retribution.

A lot of people in a lot of places could do well to try and follow his example.


God Rides a Harley but the Devil rides a Ducati!

#46 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,148 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:50 AM

Personally I dont think he is/was this great Saint the media have painted of him. He had a number of flaws and made some big errors both politically and the way he treated his family, especially his first wife. He also was the head of an ANC party that was willing to use violence and as far as I know didnt condemn them actions but neither did he order any attacks. I just picture him as a typical politician who did things in any way he could to get things done, even if they sometimes were not morally correct. And like I said he has admitted he made some grave errors and no doubt he had some burdens that he carried for his whole life. But to say he was a Terrorist for me is wrong.  Mandela is really just a human being who like all of us who made mistakes and some decisions that he will always regret. But the way the media carry on is just so way over the top. But thats typical of the media

 

He was deputy head at the time IIRC. AFAIK Oliver Tambo was actually the head.



#47 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,018 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 11:56 AM

There's always an apologist for Thatcher. BBC World at One ("Tories on 4" I call it) were at it yesterday. She could have done a lot more to remove apartheid, she didn't.  Denis's companies had huge interests in South Africa. Do the Math as they say today.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#48 Martyn Sadler

Martyn Sadler

    League Publications Ltd

  • Moderator
  • 2,776 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 11:57 AM

I think to say or imply Nelson Mandela was like all of us is a long way from the truth.  A remarkable man who had a genuine and lasting impact on the lives of tens of millions, a man who commanded the respect of his allies and opponents and a man who realised the importance of understanding and forgiveness over retribution.

A lot of people in a lot of places could do well to try and follow his example.

I totally agree with that, and I would just add that he was a genuine leader who was prepared to take his party where it probably thought it would never go, not least in embracing the Springboks at the 1995 World Cup, but also away from the example that had been set by Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe.



#49 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,153 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 12:10 PM

I totally agree with that, and I would just add that he was a genuine leader who was prepared to take his party where it probably thought it would never go, not least in embracing the Springboks at the 1995 World Cup, but also away from the example that had been set by Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe.

The ANC was never going to go the way of Zanu-PF. It was always a multiracial, multi-ethnic and multi-tribal - one read of the Freedom Charter dispels that.

Edited by WearyRhino, 07 December 2013 - 12:11 PM.

LUNEW.jpg


#50 Martyn Sadler

Martyn Sadler

    League Publications Ltd

  • Moderator
  • 2,776 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 12:24 PM

The ANC was never going to go the way of Zanu-PF. It was always a multiracial, multi-ethnic and multi-tribal - one read of the Freedom Charter dispels that.

Fortunately it didn't. But it's precisely because of the multiplicity of ethnic groups in South Africa that there was a danger of conflict, regardless of what the Freedom Charter might say. Tyrants tend not to take much notice of such documents, if and when they get into power.

 

Mandela's achievement was to lead his nation away from that possibility.



#51 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,153 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 12:56 PM

Fortunately it didn't. But it's precisely because of the multiplicity of ethnic groups in South Africa that there was a danger of conflict, regardless of what the Freedom Charter might say. Tyrants tend not to take much notice of such documents, if and when they get into power.

Mandela's achievement was to lead his nation away from that possibility.


I think you are completely misunderstanding the ANC. A democratic party since its founding in 1912. It was never going to create a dictator. The situation in SA was very very different to that in the colonial frontline states.

There were many political parties in pre-liberation SA who were 'like' Zanu-PF - the Maoist PAC/APLA being the largest - but they were never embraced by mainstream South Africans black or white.

LUNEW.jpg


#52 marklaspalmas

marklaspalmas
  • Coach
  • 11,379 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 01:41 PM

I think FWDK deserves credit for being smart enough to see the writing on the wall, but not an awful lot more than that. He certainly helped avoid a lot of bloodshed, but was inevitably looking to protect his own people's interests. Mandela's comment about preferring PWB was based on the idea that you knew exactly where you stood with Botha.


 

You Can't Buy Team Spirit

 

 

 

 


#53 ShotgunGold

ShotgunGold
  • Coach
  • 858 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 02:03 PM

I must admit I'm surprised by how one-sided the media coverage is to his death. Obviously he helped extinguish an awful regime, that has thankfully been quashed. He is undoubtedly more good than bad - but he is no saint - and doesn't quite deserve the unfettered idolism that all newspapers are currently giving him.

 

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. He was head of the Umkhonto We Sizwe, a terrorist organisation. In 1994, he admitted giving the order for ANC security guards to fire on defenceless members of the Inkatha Party (a Zulu nationalist party) which killed 53 (Shell House massacre).

 

I'm just surprised that none of his terrorist actions have been mentioned! I thought we in the Western world deplored terrorism??!!



#54 marklaspalmas

marklaspalmas
  • Coach
  • 11,379 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 02:10 PM

Reminds me of Craig Brown's political conjugations, SG.

 

I am a freedom fighter,

You are guerilla,

He is a terrorist.

 

It's all about context and perspective. Given what Mandela was up against, I wouldn't call his actions terrorism at all.


 

You Can't Buy Team Spirit

 

 

 

 


#55 Martyn Sadler

Martyn Sadler

    League Publications Ltd

  • Moderator
  • 2,776 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 02:15 PM

I think you are completely misunderstanding the ANC. A democratic party since its founding in 1912. It was never going to create a dictator. The situation in SA was very very different to that in the colonial frontline states.

There were many political parties in pre-liberation SA who were 'like' Zanu-PF - the Maoist PAC/APLA being the largest - but they were never embraced by mainstream South Africans black or white.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding the ANC. I'm actually recognising its achievement.

 

What I'm saying is that the context in which it operated was potentially volatile, which could have led to a much worse outcome than actually happened.

 

The ANC had conflicts with Inkatha, which ShotgunGold refers to, with many deaths, and it was fortunate that those conflicts, largely between the Xhosa and Zulus, didn't worsen.



#56 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,018 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 03:16 PM

TBH I don't reckon deKlerk was that far sighted.  The year that Mandela was released an apartheid government cricket tour led by Mike (just some people dancing) Gatting went ahead, even that late in the game they were still trying to maintain the status quo.  Face it they were a bad lot, many of whom sided with the Nazis in WWII.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#57 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,973 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 04:12 PM

they were a bad lot

 

Possibly NSFW

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=AZjwCmJrnlY


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#58 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,702 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 06:04 PM

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. There is definitely a grey area and it is dependent on the circumstance.

Was the French Resistance a terrorist movement?

#59 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,148 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 06:22 PM

There's always an apologist for Thatcher. BBC World at One ("Tories on 4" I call it) were at it yesterday. She could have done a lot more to remove apartheid, she didn't.  Denis's companies had huge interests in South Africa. Do the Math as they say today.

More complex than that. Cold war politics had a lot to do with it. The ANC were connected to the Communist party (Joe Slovo etc). South Africa was a strategic territory. If oil tankers could not go through the Suez canal then they would have to go via the Cape of Good Hope.



#60 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,148 posts

Posted 07 December 2013 - 06:23 PM

I think FWDK deserves credit for being smart enough to see the writing on the wall, but not an awful lot more than that. He certainly helped avoid a lot of bloodshed, but was inevitably looking to protect his own people's interests. Mandela's comment about preferring PWB was based on the idea that you knew exactly where you stood with Botha.

It was as you say.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users