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Keighley Cougars plan £5M stadium.


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#161 northamptoncougar

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:46 AM

Take me with you

#162 The Parksider

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:33 AM

The dream ends at 1,000 fans. if Keighley get a decent team and a decent stadium I am confident they will at least double the 1000 and maybe more.The Bulls however can kiss the 15,000 average goodbye forever. Their attendance decline over the last few years is precipitous and should be a huge cause for concern. They have more problems to worry about than some mythical threat from a resurgent Cougars.

 

Oh dear!

 

Anyway one Bulls fan once set out nicely how the games powerbase in Bradford is largely centered on south Bradford and Odsal where the professional AND amateur game is largely based. Fans came from all around and afar too, for Bullmania and to watch a side of well paid stars in a business model that eventually failed. For Bullmania read Cougarmania. Both failed business models based on hyped up marketing. You can't have it both ways, If those days are over they are over for both clubs.

 

As for the stadium it is neither funded nor built, but you can't blame any club for having a go for whatever money they can find. Leigh's ground was developed as a general regeneration project so it had to have multi-use to get at the money. As a home for the RL club the attendances have averaged 1,900. Doncasters Keepmoat was built mainly for soccer inc. the famous Ladies team and Doncasters attendances there have been an average of 900.

 

Neither figure shows much of an improvement if any at all never mind a reduction from the days before the clubs managed modern stadium, but there has been a general decline in second tier attendances anyway. It may be that Keighley's boss realises the proposed changes to the structure of the league in which only 16 clubs will populate the top two tiers will leave Keighley well behind if he doesn't act soon. Last time Keighley  were third tier, crowds were as bad as 470 for a game against Swinton and look what's happening to them.

 

For me getting this ground is a long shot but best of luck all. Having watched both Mania clubs, Keighley is a stand alone sizeable RL town with RL being the main spectator sport. Bradford IMVHO have little to do with the situation but I think the proposed changes to the league structure do.


Edited by The Parksider, 18 December 2013 - 09:36 AM.


#163 keighley

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 03:14 PM

Oh dear!

 

Anyway one Bulls fan once set out nicely how the games powerbase in Bradford is largely centered on south Bradford and Odsal where the professional AND amateur game is largely based. Fans came from all around and afar too, for Bullmania and to watch a side of well paid stars in a business model that eventually failed. For Bullmania read Cougarmania. Both failed business models based on hyped up marketing. You can't have it both ways, If those days are over they are over for both clubs.

 

As for the stadium it is neither funded nor built, but you can't blame any club for having a go for whatever money they can find. Leigh's ground was developed as a general regeneration project so it had to have multi-use to get at the money. As a home for the RL club the attendances have averaged 1,900. Doncasters Keepmoat was built mainly for soccer inc. the famous Ladies team and Doncasters attendances there have been an average of 900.

 

Neither figure shows much of an improvement if any at all never mind a reduction from the days before the clubs managed modern stadium, but there has been a general decline in second tier attendances anyway. It may be that Keighley's boss realises the proposed changes to the structure of the league in which only 16 clubs will populate the top two tiers will leave Keighley well behind if he doesn't act soon. Last time Keighley  were third tier, crowds were as bad as 470 for a game against Swinton and look what's happening to them.

 

For me getting this ground is a long shot but best of luck all. Having watched both Mania clubs, Keighley is a stand alone sizeable RL town with RL being the main spectator sport. Bradford IMVHO have little to do with the situation but I think the proposed changes to the league structure do.

 

You and I have fundamentally different outlooks re the game. You are the eternal pessimist in my opinion whilst I might err in  the opposite direction.

 

I remember the threads saying Salford. Leigh and Doncaster would never see their ground built, long meandering doom laden threads at that but hey, all three grounds are built and open. Going farther back, I remember Huddersfield looking dead and buried and at Fartown. Now the new stadium is long ago erected. I remember Halifax having to sell Thrum Hall and moving to an only slightly better Shay but look at it now. I remember Widnes at the old Naughton Park and Saints in a crumbling Knowlsey Road and even Wigan having to sell central Park only to be bailed out by DW. I remember Rochdale at their dying dump and Hull at the boulevard and Craven Park without a decent pitch and no stand at the end. I remember most of all Mount Pleasant prior to it's upgrade to the cracking little stadium it is now based on a scheme similar to that proposed for Keighley, namely grants and a long time frame for completion, not to forget Dewsbury's new Crown Flatt Some even said Hunslet wold never ever return to South Leeds as there was no ground to return to. Also let's not forget that the new Wakefield ground is well along the road to a start and even York have been assured of a new ground in a share with York City..

 

So, whilst Keighley's ground might never materialise, just like the redevelopment of Odsal, I prefer to give the club the benefit of the doubt and presume they have done their homework re grants, loans and debentures and that they can pull it off. Many others have.

 

As regards attendances in the Championships, it is true they are mostly dire but at Fev ( another redeveloped ground about to become reality ) and Fax there are bright spots. Leigh too look to have finally got their act together. Did attendances increase there last season, I got the impression they did. Doncaster are building steadily and two seasons ago won  the Championship of CC1 and last season got to the playoffs in the Championship proper and are now under the wing of Doncaster Rovers. 900 for them is historically decent. In the alleged golden years of RL I was working  at Thorne and they were my local team and the average was 250 and that was when they were playing against the top Yorkshire sides like Leeds and Wakefield etc.

 

I think Keighley's glory days are over and if you have read my other posts you will see what my projections for improved crowds might be. I do think the Bulls 15,000 stuff is a thing of the past also unless they rise to a position of dominance that they were in at that time. Do you see that happening, I don't. they are having financial issues and cutting back at this very moment.

 

Keighley, however, seem to be solvent ( for once ) and they are slowly improving their team. If the stadium is actually built and a decent team is performing here I can see a decent increase in crowds. Bradford will have to pull in 7,000 to regain their zenith. Keighley only 3000, a much bigger ask and we don't have Bradford City pulling in 14,000 to contend with.



#164 yipyee

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:25 PM

Ok, is any SL chairman who claims you need 8000-10000 to spend full cap (I.e competing in SL) a troll?

You people claim this of me for quoting this!

I could say you are trolling for..

1. Banging on about bringing back P&R
2.Banging on about bringing back lions
3. Banging on about cougarmania
4. Dreaming that the world hasn’t changed
5. Pretending the bulls aren't a big club
6. Pretending SL wasn't going to buy (and save) the bulls

I could go on...

One poster brought RBS as an example but they were rescued as too important to fail!

I don't have to agree with you, you don't have to agree with me....

It would appear that a few posters can't handle a modern take on things

Grow up and act your ages comes to mind !

#165 keighley

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:51 PM

Ok, is any SL chairman who claims you need 8000-10000 to spend full cap (I.e competing in SL) a troll?

You people claim this of me for quoting this!

I could say you are trolling for..

1. Banging on about bringing back P&R
2.Banging on about bringing back lions
3. Banging on about cougarmania
4. Dreaming that the world hasn’t changed
5. Pretending the bulls aren't a big club
6. Pretending SL wasn't going to buy (and save) the bulls

I could go on...

One poster brought RBS as an example but they were rescued as too important to fail!

I don't have to agree with you, you don't have to agree with me....

It would appear that a few posters can't handle a modern take on things

Grow up and act your ages comes to mind !

 

1. Whichever new format is to be Introduced, i.e. 3 x 8 or 1 or 2 up and down, it is and will be a form of p and r or do you have some in side info to the contrary.

 

2. I personally have never advocated bringing back the Lions but it has been put forward as part of a proposed international calendar at the highest level or did you not read that snippet.

 

3. For every reference to Cougarmania, there has been an opposite response from you about Bullmania. the word "kettle. pot and black" come to mind.

 

4 and 5 Bradford WERE a top club on the same level as Wigan, Leeds, St Helens and Warrington. They are now at the level of Wakefield, Hull KR, Castleford and , Widnes. They are no longer an elite club. What part of that scenario don't you understand ?

 

6. Unless you know something new SL did not buy and save the Bulls. They merely facilitated new ownership to do so.

 

RBS was regarded as too big to fail but they did just that , SPECTACULARLY. That the poor British taxpayer had to foot the bill is immaterial to the fact that they failed and how.

 

Calling people childish because they won't kow tow to your views is exactly that childish in extremis. Modernity might be considered in part as updating old and outdated edifices and planning for a brighter future as no doubt the Cougars are doing by building a new and modern stadium.

 

Now go back over the border onto the mythical Shangri La of Bradford and leave us poor benighted outlanders from Keighley to be positive about our new stadium plans.



#166 yipyee

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:52 PM

1. Whichever new format is to be Introduced, i.e. 3 x 8 or 1 or 2 up and down, it is and will be a form of p and r or do you have some in side info to the contrary.

2. I personally have never advocated bringing back the Lions but it has been put forward as part of a proposed international calendar at the highest level or did you not read that snippet.

3. For every reference to Cougarmania, there has been an opposite response from you about Bullmania. the word "kettle. pot and black" come to mind.

4 and 5 Bradford WERE a top club on the same level as Wigan, Leeds, St Helens and Warrington. They are now at the level of Wakefield, Hull KR, Castleford and , Widnes. They are no longer an elite club. What part of that scenario don't you understand ?

6. Unless you know something new SL did not buy and save the Bulls. They merely facilitated new ownership to do so.

RBS was regarded as too big to fail but they did just that , SPECTACULARLY. That the poor British taxpayer had to foot the bill is immaterial to the fact that they failed and how.

Calling people childish because they won't kow tow to your views is exactly that childish in extremis. Modernity might be considered in part as updating old and outdated edifices and planning for a brighter future as no doubt the Cougars are doing by building a new and modern stadium.

Now go back over the border onto the mythical Shangri La of Bradford and leave us poor benighted outlanders from Keighley to be positive about our new stadium plans.


Some of this I agree with other bits I don't, let's not go round in circles when we will never agree. ...

Just on a last note, Bradford may at present be on a par with the said clubs but only because they aren't getting their TV money!

Oh and I wasn't calling your good self childish I respect you for having strong views and putting up a good debate! I took offence to another posters accusations because I have a different view point!

#167 Northern Sol

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:07 AM

Some of this I agree with other bits I don't, let's not go round in circles when we will never agree. ...

Just on a last note, Bradford may at present be on a par with the said clubs but only because they aren't getting their TV money!

Oh and I wasn't calling your good self childish I respect you for having strong views and putting up a good debate! I took offence to another posters accusations because I have a different view point!

They were forced to sell their ground to the RFL when they were getting their full share of the TV money. It's hard to see them as being "bigger" than Cas, Widnes etc right at the minute. 


Edited by Northern Sol, 19 December 2013 - 12:08 AM.


#168 Ackroman

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:58 AM

Don't feed it. If it wants to start a thread about a franchised SL then it should do so.

 

This thread is about Keighley looking to improve facilities, I really can't see any harm in that. There's been a quiet revolution going on at certain clubs in the Championship.



#169 The Parksider

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:35 AM

You and I have fundamentally different outlooks re the game. You are the eternal pessimist in my opinion whilst I might err in  the opposite direction.

 

I remember the threads saying Salford. Leigh and Doncaster would never see their ground built, long meandering doom laden threads at that but hey, all three grounds are built and open. Going farther back, I remember Huddersfield looking dead and buried and at Fartown. Now the new stadium is long ago erected. I remember Halifax having to sell Thrum Hall and moving to an only slightly better Shay but look at it now. I remember Widnes at the old Naughton Park and Saints in a crumbling Knowlsey Road and even Wigan having to sell central Park only to be bailed out by DW. I remember Rochdale at their dying dump and Hull at the boulevard and Craven Park without a decent pitch and no stand at the end. I remember most of all Mount Pleasant prior to it's upgrade to the cracking little stadium it is now based on a scheme similar to that proposed for Keighley, namely grants and a long time frame for completion, not to forget Dewsbury's new Crown Flatt Some even said Hunslet wold never ever return to South Leeds as there was no ground to return to. Also let's not forget that the new Wakefield ground is well along the road to a start and even York have been assured of a new ground in a share with York City..

 

So, whilst Keighley's ground might never materialise, just like the redevelopment of Odsal, I prefer to give the club the benefit of the doubt and presume they have done their homework re grants, loans and debentures and that they can pull it off. Many others have.

 

I think your idea of us being opposites is totally unhelpful. After all you agree the SKY contract is everything and you now largely agree that it takes investors to build a club, and investors who are not bothered about a return at that. You even agree radical league restructures won't change things. I don't call that opposites.

 

Now you regress and launch into another fanciful debate void of facts reasoning and logic based on your self styled "white knight of optimism" vanquishing the black heart of the infidel RL pessimist.

 

Grounds have and have not been built so if Hemel Hempstead announce a £20,000,000 super stadium then I suppose it could happen, they are still taking odds on Norwich to win the Premier league too.

 

How and why all those grounds got built is the logic and reasoning as far as Keighley are concerned. There are things that IMHO they must include in the project to attract the grants and other funds, because they certainly lack two main factors, 1. A council that is another City's council who would find it hard to give one club the money and not others as is the problem around Wakefield, and 2. No soccer club to ride on the back of.

 

Let's both be realists from now on and maybe we can agree more. As for the Hunslet got their new ground point you left out the bit where the council was tied to an agreement to build one in exchange for Hunslet vacating Elland Road. The council then built it as a 2,000 capacity and refused to extend the capacity for Super League. Our new ground was a ticket to being a supporters club team. What revolution is your new ground a ticket to?


Edited by The Parksider, 19 December 2013 - 09:38 AM.


#170 yipyee

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:34 AM

They were forced to sell their ground to the RFL when they were getting their full share of the TV money. It's hard to see them as being "bigger" than Cas, Widnes etc right at the minute. 

 

Bradford overspent but finished in the top 8, they got a points deduction that saw them outside the top 8, 

 

I agree that they are on level with cas at the moment, but when they start getting their money back for TV revenue they 'should' kick on!

I dont really understand what the benefit or justification of punishing Bradford in this way is? They had a points deduction the same as any other team in breach of operating rules!



#171 John Drake

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:43 AM

Aaaaand locked.


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