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Anjem Choudray


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#41 808tone

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:21 PM

That's a rather eccentric posting.

 

I must admit I had never heard of 'Bible John', but the Internet is a very useful tool.

 

Apparently someone unknown killed three young women in Scotland in the late 1960s and was given the moniker because he was suspected of saying he read the Bible on Hogmanay, or something to that effect. The murderer was never caught, although one individual was and still is suspected of the crime.

 

Not strictly comparable, I would suggest.

Stephen Lawrence still is front page news but nothing of the Kriss Donald murder....why.



#42 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:22 PM

Martyn, I was clear Iit was a bad idea IMO.

 

However, the objection of many is that they invite ignorant people on as experts in the name of balance.  This is true, but they would face heavy criticism from people if they did not.

 

On this, they were clearly wrong.  The suggestion that people generally would be OK with them only inviting reasonable people who knew what they were talking about is also misguided. 

Again, I'm not sure about the way you use the term 'ignorant', and I certainly wouldn't use that word to describe Choudary.

 

I rarely if ever hear the Today programme, for example, interviewing ignorant people.

 

Your final sentence suggests that the audience for some reason doesn't want to hear 'reasonable' people, whoever they happen to be.


Edited by Martyn Sadler, 21 December 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#43 Bob8

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:49 PM

Again, I'm not sure about the way you use the term 'ignorant', and I certainly wouldn't use that word to describe Choudary.

 

I rarely if ever hear the Today programme, for example, interviewing ignorant people.

 

Your final sentence suggests that the audience for some reason doesn't want to hear 'reasonable' people, whoever they happen to be.

Martyn, Sorry if it is complicated. 

 

Again, I am not saying that Choudary should have been on.  What I explained was that this error was a result of them feeling obliged to have two sides to every argument, regardless of how reasonable they are.  Part of the reason for this was illustrated with the vaccine debacle, when science was presented as bias.  Many on here felt the problem was that people who knew the issue were given too much platform and people who were shouting nonsense should have had a greater platform on the BBC.  The BBC has learnt through experience like this to give a platform to clearly unreasonable views.


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#44 WearyRhino

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:56 PM

Martyn, Sorry if it is complicated.

Again, I am not saying that Choudary should have been on. What I explained was that this error was a result of them feeling obliged to have two sides to every argument, regardless of how reasonable they are. Part of the reason for this was illustrated with the vaccine debacle, when science was presented as bias. Many on here felt the problem was that people who knew the issue were given too much platform and people who were shouting nonsense should have had a greater platform on the BBC. The BBC has learnt through experience like this to give a platform to clearly unreasonable views.


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#45 Johnoco

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 02:00 PM

What they should do, definitely, is like on The Day Today when the Gerry Adams style character had to inhale helium before speaking. This would be more apt.

#46 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 02:04 PM

But there is a big difference between a lone madman and people acting on behalf of others (or so they think)
It wouldn't make sense to ask the local bishop to comment on a serial killer like that. This is a case of people claiming they do something and blame others for it. (IE we are killing this guy because of British foreign policy)

I agree
Although Jesus/god told me to do it is a feature of murders committed by schizophrenics
Didn't the ripper come out with something on those lines?
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#47 Johnoco

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 03:53 PM

I agree
Although Jesus/god told me to do it is a feature of murders committed by schizophrenics
Didn't the ripper come out with something on those lines?

He did. But Radio 4 didn't interview someone who claimed 'actually, he has a point' did they.

#48 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:23 PM

He did. But Radio 4 didn't interview someone who claimed 'actually, he has a point' did they.

I doubt it

 

But again I agree with you


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#49 Jerry the Berry

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:45 PM

Although Jesus/god told me to do it is a feature of murders committed by schizophrenics
 

Is it really? That's quite a sweeping statement.


Edited by Jerry the Berry, 21 December 2013 - 09:46 PM.


#50 Trojan

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:52 PM

Choudary appeared on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme this morning talking about the verdict in the Lee Rigby trial.

 

Naturally he refused to condemn the killers, and the presenter John Humphrys proved incapable of exposing Choudary's cant and hypocrisy.

 

It's difficult to know why the BBC keep giving him publicity, treating him as some sort of Muslim spokesman, when clearly he isn't, apart from for a minority of perverted individuals such as the two murderers in this case.

 

As Mehdi Hasan has commented about him: "Is Choudary an Islamic scholar whose views merit attention or consideration? No. Has he studied under leading Islamic scholars? Nope. Does he have any Islamic qualifications or credentials? None whatsoever. So what gives him the right to pontificate on Islam, British Muslims or 'the hellfire'? Or proclaim himself a 'sharia judge'?"

 

That having been said, Choudary was trained as a lawyer and dealt with Humphrys quite impressively. It would be easy to imagine young hotheaded Muslims listening to that interview and siding with him, and joining his so-called jihadi organisation. On the other hand, I can't imagine how I would have felt if I had been a relative of Lee Rigby.

 

For reaction to the interview see: http://www.telegraph...ry-airtime.html

Of course the fair minded Telegraph are going to give the Beeb a good write up aren't they!?  I listened to the Humphreys interview and I though Chouday was shown up as a total bigot whose opinions are not worth listening to.  The Telegraph really has got a bee in its bonnet about the BBC.  


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#51 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 11:07 PM

Is it really? That's quite a sweeping statement.

No it isn't

It happens is a feature

By no means the only twisted rationale of the demented person's existential explanation of their actions

Paranoid schizophrenics have all manner if vehicles fir their delusions


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#52 Johnoco

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:12 AM

Of course the fair minded Telegraph are going to give the Beeb a good write up aren't they!? I listened to the Humphreys interview and I though Chouday was shown up as a total bigot whose opinions are not worth listening to. The Telegraph really has got a bee in its bonnet about the BBC.

I am pretty sure there are any number of extremists espousing anything you could imagine. I also imagine that they would be made to look like idiots if they were subject to cross examination by a half decent broadcaster.
But that doesn't mean we give them the platform does it?

Perhaps we might have a serial rapist on next week. He will argue that they were asking for it. But as long as he ends up looking stupid that's ok? Of course not.

#53 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:02 AM

I am pretty sure there are any number of extremists espousing anything you could imagine. I also imagine that they would be made to look like idiots if they were subject to cross examination by a half decent broadcaster.
But that doesn't mean we give them the platform does it?

Perhaps we might have a serial rapist on next week. He will argue that they were asking for it. But as long as he ends up looking stupid that's ok? Of course not.

Well that kind of thing does happen in documentaries dramas and docudrama

I thought 'an appropriate adult' was brilliant


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#54 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 10:37 AM

Of course the fair minded Telegraph are going to give the Beeb a good write up aren't they!?  I listened to the Humphreys interview and I though Chouday was shown up as a total bigot whose opinions are not worth listening to.  The Telegraph really has got a bee in its bonnet about the BBC.  

The criticism of the BBC on this issue has come from all sides of the political spectrum, not least from Labour MPs who represent constituencies in which there may be young men susceptible to the message that Choudary is espousing.

 

Of course you thought Choudary was shown up as a total bigot, and so did I. But we are not the audience he is aiming at. John Humphreys' incessant interruptions and hectoring tone would persuade many of Choudary's followers that the world is against them, which is precisely the emotion that Choudary is seeking to cultivate.



#55 Stevo

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:49 PM

The criticism of the BBC on this issue has come from all sides of the political spectrum, not least from Labour MPs who represent constituencies in which there may be young men susceptible to the message that Choudary is espousing.

 

Of course you thought Choudary was shown up as a total bigot, and so did I. But we are not the audience he is aiming at. John Humphreys' incessant interruptions and hectoring tone would persuade many of Choudary's followers that the world is against them, which is precisely the emotion that Choudary is seeking to cultivate.

 

Living in the same area as Choudary, I'd tend to agree. For a short time the local press treated him as a serious spokesperson on "Muslim issues" (for want of a better term), but they eventually clocked that he was a delusional windbag, and so stopped going to his "press conferences" and his local profile diminished.

 

He became little more than a local oddity, handing out leaflets on the market with a small band of equally delusional followers whom he would occassionaly motivate into criminal activity (a couple of them have just been sentenced to some time inside for various religiously-inspired assaults).

 

Having Chourdary interviewed on the BBC legitimises his views, and gives him an authority he does not warrant - it was a poor editorial call, and if the stories about Panorama are true also a very strange one.


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#56 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:31 PM

That's a rather eccentric posting.

 

I must admit I had never heard of 'Bible John', but the Internet is a very useful tool.

 

Apparently someone unknown killed three young women in Scotland in the late 1960s and was given the moniker because he was suspected of saying he read the Bible on Hogmanay, or something to that effect. The murderer was never caught, although one individual was and still is suspected of the crime.

 

Not strictly comparable, I would suggest.

It isn't strictly comparable as has been outlined in the thread

 

I lived in Scotland at the time and the case was as significant and high profile as the ripper he was never caught although the strongest suspect is now dead.

There was a little more to it than reading the bible on hogmanay

 

And a lot less to my post than you seem to think


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 22 December 2013 - 08:47 PM.

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#57 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:22 PM

The Telegraph really has got a bee in its bonnet about the BBC.  

Just as a matter of balance, it seems that the New Statesman must also have a bee in its bonnet about the BBC.

 

See http://www.newstates...oudary-platform


Edited by Martyn Sadler, 22 December 2013 - 03:23 PM.


#58 Trojan

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:57 PM

The criticism of the BBC on this issue has come from all sides of the political spectrum, not least from Labour MPs who represent constituencies in which there may be young men susceptible to the message that Choudary is espousing.

 

Of course you thought Choudary was shown up as a total bigot, and so did I. But we are not the audience he is aiming at. John Humphreys' incessant interruptions and hectoring tone would persuade many of Choudary's followers that the world is against them, which is precisely the emotion that Choudary is seeking to cultivate.

But criticism from the Telegraph is meaningless, everyone knows they believe that the Beeb is a left wing organisation, anyone listening to Martha Kearney's supine interviews with Tory politicians, and hardline interrogation of Labour people must know this is a distorion.  If the likes of Choudary were not given a platform, then he and his supporters could say with good reason that they've been gagged.  Given his subject I though Humphreys did a pretty good job of exposing what a very unpleasant man Choudary is.  The only people who'd be impressed by his performance would be those who support him anyway, so what's lost?


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#59 Johnoco

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 07:50 PM

You are missing the point Trojan. Of course anyone with a bit of nous will see him for what he is. It's not these people who are the danger. Its the gullible idiots being recruited as foot soldiers that carry out the attacks people like him instigate. I couldn't give a toss about the Telegraph, it doesn't stop it being true.

#60 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:07 PM

But criticism from the Telegraph is meaningless, everyone knows they believe that the Beeb is a left wing organisation, anyone listening to Martha Kearney's supine interviews with Tory politicians, and hardline interrogation of Labour people must know this is a distorion.  If the likes of Choudary were not given a platform, then he and his supporters could say with good reason that they've been gagged.  Given his subject I though Humphreys did a pretty good job of exposing what a very unpleasant man Choudary is.  The only people who'd be impressed by his performance would be those who support him anyway, so what's lost?

How about those who might support him if he is given a platform?

 

Who would Choudary be if the media didn't give him all this free airtime?