Jump to content


TotalRL.com Shop Alert: Last Ordering Date for Free Pre-Xmas Delivery within UK: 2pm Thursday 18th December!!
Rugby League Yearbook 2014/15 The Forbidden Game League Express League Express Gift Card Rugby League World Rugby League World Gift Card
Buy Now £14.99 Buy Now £14.99 / Kindle Print / Digital Subscription Gift Cards Print / Digital Subscription Gift Cards



Photo
- - - - -

Food banks


  • Please log in to reply
134 replies to this topic

#41 Phil

Phil
  • Coach
  • 2,049 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

So basically, screw you kids, my habit comes first? If you only have so much money, you aren't supposed to spend a chunk of it on a personal habit at the expense of food or clothes. And excusing people who do this by defending their habit makes it even easier for them to continue.

 

 

no its because you live a desperate life of (at best) temporary low paid, low hours work, debt, ###### housing and helplessness so why shouldn't you?

 

some marvelously victorian attitudes on here.

 

"Are there no prisons? are there no workhouses?" I won't reference this quote, you can find it for yourselves, it comes from a famous victorian tale by a writer who was always concerned with the causes and effectss of poverty.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#42 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,419 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:15 PM

So basically, screw you kids, my habit comes first? If you only have so much money, you aren't supposed to spend a chunk of it on a personal habit at the expense of food or clothes. And excusing people who do this by defending their habit makes it even easier for them to continue.


You talk about it like it is educated informed personal choice. This is a social phenomena - throughout the industrialised developed and developing world 'the poor' and 'disadvantaged' routinely choose to abuse substances, lead chaotic lifestyles that provide for a, de facto, worsening of their plight and perpetuation of their social malaise. The key lies in trying to understand the multiple correlations and strands of causation and certainly not in condemnation. But then maybe some people find knee-jerk reaction easier than logical reasoning!

LUNEW.jpg


#43 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:58 PM

Let me remind anyone, I come from a rough estate
I know what plenty of people are like on them and many of them are just selfish tossers who would rather their kids go short than they go without their cigs and booze.
I resent the Dickens analogy too. It's the selfish lady greedy ones that make it hard for the ones in genuine need and result in aspersions being cast.

If someone has £70 to spend on food but opts to spend £14 of it on cigs then I am sorry but they are tossers. End of.

#44 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,419 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:12 PM

Let me remind anyone, I come from a rough estate
I know what plenty of people are like on them and many of them are just selfish tossers who would rather their kids go short than they go without their cigs and booze.
I resent the Dickens analogy too. It's the selfish lady greedy ones that make it hard for the ones in genuine need and result in aspersions being cast.

If someone has £70 to spend on food but opts to spend £14 of it on cigs then I am sorry but they are tossers. End of.


So ALL the millions of poor people around the world who smoke, drink, use narcotics and lead chaotic lifestyles are just "selfish tossers" are they? Oh and by the way some of us still live on Council Estates and don't recognise what you describe. Lots of nice people willing to help each other though.

LUNEW.jpg


#45 TheTerminator

TheTerminator
  • Coach
  • 2,067 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:18 PM

Let me remind anyone, I come from a rough estate
I know what plenty of people are like on them and many of them are just selfish tossers who would rather their kids go short than they go without their cigs and booze.
I resent the Dickens analogy too. It's the selfish lady greedy ones that make it hard for the ones in genuine need and result in aspersions being cast.

If someone has £70 to spend on food but opts to spend £14 of it on cigs then I am sorry but they are tossers. End of.

The fact you come from a rough estate is pretty irrelevant IMO, and similar to Michael Gove's belief that he's an expert on Social Work purely based upon the fact that he was adopted as a child.

Ok, its hardly ideal that someone on the poverty line would make the choice to spend their money on addictive substances but, perhaps, as a result of their own below-par upbringing or low mental intelligence, they struggle to prioritise their childrens needs above their own. It's nothing to do with inherently selfish attitudes, IMO.

I know plenty of working parents earning decent wages who whinge constantly about having little money for decent food, household items etc., yet spend a fortune on weekly boozy nights out whilst the kids are at home with a paid babysitter. Does this make them 'bad' people too?

Edited by TheTerminator, 02 January 2014 - 05:24 PM.

Posted Image


#46 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:20 PM

So ALL the millions of poor people around the world who smoke, drink, use narcotics and lead chaotic lifestyles are just "selfish tossers" are they? Oh and by the way some of us still live on Council Estates and don't recognise what you describe. Lots of nice people willing to help each other though.

Don't patronise me pal or try to put words in my mouth. I am not talking about the entire worlds poor, I am talking about a specific type of person who I know from *personal experience* spend money on cigs and booze at the expense of their kids but then cry the poor tale. Feel free to portray me as the evil one and them as poor helpless victims if you want, but you'd be wrong.

#47 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:27 PM

The fact you come from a rough estate is pretty irrelevant IMO, and similar to Michael Gove's belief that he's an expert on Social Work purely based upon the fact that he was adopted as a child.

Ok, its hardly ideal that someone on the poverty line would make the choice to spend their money on addictive substances, but perhaps, as a result of their own below-par upbringing or low mental intelligence, they struggle to prioritise their childrens needs above their own. It's nothing to do with inherently selfish attitudes,

It means I know of such people first hand and not because I read it in the paper.

It also means I don't think they are thick either but know it is because they are selfish. I aren't talking about perfection. ...where did I imply that? ...I aren't going to pretend such people don't exist and abuse the system. That does not also mean I think we should tar everyone with the same brush.

#48 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,419 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:27 PM

Don't patronise me pal or try to put words in my mouth. I am not talking about the entire worlds poor, I am talking about a specific type of person who I know from *personal experience* spend money on cigs and booze at the expense of their kids but then cry the poor tale. Feel free to portray me as the evil one and them as poor helpless victims if you want, but you'd be wrong.


The only person making qualitative judgements on people, and it's often the case, is YOU John. I'm suggesting that as a recognisable social phenomena replicated all over the world it needs investigating.

LUNEW.jpg


#49 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:39 PM

The only person making qualitative judgements on people, and it's often the case, is YOU John. I'm suggesting that as a recognisable social phenomena replicated all over the world it needs investigating.

Judgement? Yes. Trying to comment on things other than my personal experience? No.

#50 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,419 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:47 PM

Judgement? Yes. Trying to comment on things other than my personal experience? No.


Might you be able to consider that your personal experience might not provide an accurate picture? You see, with a sample that small and self selecting, the margin of error is quite sizable. Moreover, there is a world of things going on outside your personal experience!

LUNEW.jpg


#51 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:14 PM

Might you be able to consider that your personal experience might not provide an accurate picture? You see, with a sample that small and self selecting, the margin of error is quite sizable. Moreover, there is a world of things going on outside your personal experience!

But I aren't arguing that most people are on the fiddle. I was raising the question as to what relevance Tory attitudes to the poor are if you are personally faced with the dilemma of buying cigs or food. I am being portrayed as if I am saying 'who gives a toss about the poor' when nothing could be further from the truth.
I just can't stand the people who buy cigs/booze instead of essentials for their kids.

#52 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,401 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:34 PM

Regardless of all that Trojan, if you can't afford enough food for your family, why would you smoke?

Have you ever smoked?  I began smoking properly as a 14 year old, by the time I was 24 I realised that I wanted to give up. It took me twenty years of trying. I finally kicked the habit on 22nd March 1991.  Cigarettes are very very addictive.


"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#53 Bob8

Bob8
  • Coach
  • 9,616 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:36 PM

You are right, John.  People will waste some inevitably, but there are many who will waste what should go to others.  They are a minority, but there are ****s in this world. 

 

However, it is often used as a justification to say that the problem is entirely self-made and that the people working for ###### wages (or not working) are the problem.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#54 Phil

Phil
  • Coach
  • 2,049 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:38 PM

I just can't stand the people who buy cigs/booze instead of essentials for their kids.

 

 

But this shifts the blame onto the poor themselves. How many of them do this? Some I'm sure, I'm not a hopeless utopian. But how many? 5% 17% 38%? I don't know and I suspect you don't either.

 

I'm sure you know some that do, examples can always be found, but look at how this thread has developed, it only took a few posts before the "blame" was firmly thrown back onto the food bank users themselves. No-one I think, has used the phrase "feckless" yet but its there in the subtext, a subtext which basically says "nowt to do with me/us it's their own fault, they spend money on fags and booze instead of food" and by saying that it makes us feel a bit better, a bit more superior doesn't it? 'cos we're not like that, we're not "feckless" we can manage our affairs.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#55 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,401 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:39 PM

But I aren't arguing that most people are on the fiddle. I was raising the question as to what relevance Tory attitudes to the poor are if you are personally faced with the dilemma of buying cigs or food. I am being portrayed as if I am saying 'who gives a toss about the poor' when nothing could be further from the truth.
I just can't stand the people who buy cigs/booze instead of essentials for their kids.

I'm not saying you don't give a toss about the poor, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor.  Let's get one thing absolutely clear, this government are expecting to pay down the deficit by coming down hard on those who can least afford it, and letting those who can most afford it get off more or less scot-free.  No change there then!  As for Thatcher being a strong leader, don't make me laugh. She had the proceeds of North Sea oil and privatisation to spend keeping 4m unemployed whilst distributing tax cuts to the better off.  Thatcher was a disaster for this country and the longer time passes since her spell in power the more this becomes obvious.


"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#56 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:52 PM

But this shifts the blame onto the poor themselves. How many of them do this? Some I'm sure, I'm not a hopeless utopian. But how many? 5% 17% 38%? I don't know and I suspect you don't either.

I'm sure you know some that do, examples can always be found, but look at how this thread has developed, it only took a few posts before the "blame" was firmly thrown back onto the food bank users themselves. No-one I think, has used the phrase "feckless" yet but its there in the subtext, a subtext which basically says "nowt to do with me/us it's their own fault, they spend money on fags and booze instead of food" and by saying that it makes us feel a bit better, a bit more superior doesn't it? 'cos we're not like that, we're not "feckless" we can manage our affairs.

I was raised very poor (money wise! !) Nobody ever told me that you don't spend money on cigs and booze instead of food, it's just blatantly obvious. Now if I can see that with my background, why can't these others who are actually much better off than we were? I will repeat; anyone who spends money on cigs or booze instead of essentials for their children is a greedy selfish waster. You can dress it up with political phrases or whatever you want but that's what they are.
I shouldn't have to but I will state the obvious, ie that I don't think most people are like this.

#57 Phil

Phil
  • Coach
  • 2,049 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:54 PM

I was raised very poor (money wise! !) Nobody ever told me that you don't spend money on cigs and booze instead of food, it's just blatantly obvious. Now if I can see that with my background, why can't these others who are actually much better off than we were? I will repeat; anyone who spends money on cigs or booze instead of essentials for their children is a greedy selfish waster. You can dress it up with political phrases or whatever you want but that's what they are.
I shouldn't have to but I will state the obvious, ie that I don't think most people are like this.

 

But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#58 Griff9of13

Griff9of13
  • Coach
  • 6,148 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:09 PM

But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.

 

Indeed. And then there is the practicalities of working out which people turning up at a food bank smoke or not. I mean, how do you really tell? All you can really do is ask them, and they can obviously just lie. 

 

And why are we worrying about this anyway? Isn't the real issue how awful and frankly shameful it is that for all it's wealth so many of our countries people have to rely on food banks in the first place. 


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#59 Phil

Phil
  • Coach
  • 2,049 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:12 PM

Indeed. And then there is the practicalities of working out which people turning up at a food bank smoke or not. I mean, how do you really tell? All you can really do is ask them, and they can obviously just lie. 

 

And why are we worrying about this anyway? Isn't the real issue how awful and frankly shameful it is that for all it's wealth so many of our countries people have to rely on food banks in the first place. 

 

Exactly but right wingers are level 500 adepts at shifting the blame.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#60 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,493 posts

Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:17 PM

But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.

Well I certainly aren't. But neither am I going to pretend that these people don't exist and don't actually need food banks but accept their kindness all the same. But I am by no means saying it is endemic either.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users