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#81 Saintslass

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:32 PM

But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.

I disagree.  There is a difference between responsibility and blame.  If adults consider themselves old/mature enough to have children then it must be expected that they will also be considered, by others, to be old/mature enough to take responsibility for those children.  What people appear to be referring to on here is responsibility.  Some parents do not take responsibility either for themselves or for their children, and maintaining their addiction is one element of that.  Addictions can be overcome.  It takes willpower, determination and drive but it is not impossible.  I speak from experience.



#82 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:34 PM

Likewise, although with some of the kids stuff like prams etc that to be honest had barely been used (we made the mistake most new parents probably made and didn't plan far enough ahead for when number 2 arrived!) we did try and give to charities that would use them rather than sell them on for a fraction of there worth to people grabbing a bargain but it was hardwork finding people that took donated goods to pass the goods on rather than sell them.

 

I'd be amazed if it were three for most given how hard it is to actually save above and beyond the costs of every day life.

 

Are they the ones down by the Wrestling club on the way to the Rugby club?  I walk the dog down there quite a lot and you do see signs of life down there, I'm pretty sure there's a waiting list so I'd guess those ones are in use.  The Brick charity in Wigan mentioned in the article I linked mention allotments and cooking programmes on there volunteer page.

 

As an aside Ray, my raised beds are still to see the light of day, although I have built a new retaining wall and bought the materials to build the beds with!  ;)

 

Marc, it's the ones going down Bolton Rd. and then turning right though I could be mistaken. As for the garden, you always have to put something off, just as an excuse to get out there.  ;)


Edited by Saint Billinge, 03 January 2014 - 03:54 PM.


#83 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

In some areas, notable in London, there are long waiting lists for allotments, so I'm surprised you are seeing abandoned ones.

 

I assume the local council controls the leasing of them - perhaps they are letting them run down to make space for development.

 

Shrek says some seem to be in use, but others do look overgrown and abandoned. 



#84 Bob8

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:50 PM

I disagree.  There is a difference between responsibility and blame.  If adults consider themselves old/mature enough to have children then it must be expected that they will also be considered, by others, to be old/mature enough to take responsibility for those children.  What people appear to be referring to on here is responsibility.  Some parents do not take responsibility either for themselves or for their children, and maintaining their addiction is one element of that.  Addictions can be overcome.  It takes willpower, determination and drive but it is not impossible.  I speak from experience.

I do not think anyone is suggestion people should not be responsible.

 

What they are saying is that if people have just enough for the basics, they will spend a bit of it on other stuff too.  This is true of pretty much everyone in every society.  People may hark back to the 1950's, but that there were more smokers and pubs suggests people liked the things even then.

 

Equally, not everyone, or even that many, who are using food banks are wasting large amounts of money and are not really in need.  Therefore, stopping them or blaming the users is going to affect more of your goodies than baddies.


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#85 Phil

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:58 PM

I disagree.  There is a difference between responsibility and blame.  If adults consider themselves old/mature enough to have children then it must be expected that they will also be considered, by others, to be old/mature enough to take responsibility for those children.  What people appear to be referring to on here is responsibility.  Some parents do not take responsibility either for themselves or for their children, and maintaining their addiction is one element of that.  Addictions can be overcome.  It takes willpower, determination and drive but it is not impossible.  I speak from experience.

 

 

it's 2014 and people are having to use food banks to feed themselves and their families. some of them may even be smokers!!!!

 

who's fault is it? Theirs according to many on here, presumably for having the unmitigated temerity to like a fag.

 

Maybe, i don't know, i'm not a smoker but i like a pint, maybe that fag helps 'em get through another miserable day.

 

They make me sick

:drag:


Edited by Phil, 03 January 2014 - 04:11 PM.

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#86 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:05 PM

I do not think anyone is suggestion people should not be responsible.

 

What they are saying is that if people have just enough for the basics, they will spend a bit of it on other stuff too.  This is true of pretty much everyone in every society.  People may hark back to the 1950's, but that there were more smokers and pubs suggests people liked the things even then.

 

Equally, not everyone, or even that many, who are using food banks are wasting large amounts of money and are not really in need.  Therefore, stopping them or blaming the users is going to affect more of your goodies than baddies.

 

You are right that smoking was more fashionable in the 1950s, but then people were more resourceful. Thankfully, I managed to kick the habit of 60 cigs per day some years back, and feel more healthy for it. For others, they just cannot overcome the habit. 


Edited by Saint Billinge, 03 January 2014 - 04:10 PM.


#87 Wolford6

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:08 PM

I'm 5'9" and 15 stone. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. I can't  take the risk ...my body is a temple.

;)


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#88 Bob8

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:11 PM

You are right that smoking was more fashionable in the 1950s, but then people were more resourceful.

It is not really a fair comparison.  My point is that almost everyone will spend a little on cheap luxuries, even if they only have enough to get by.  That is true across all societies and times.


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#89 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:12 PM

I'm 5'9" and 15 stone. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. I can't  take the risk ...my body is a temple.

;)

 

I worship you!  ;)



#90 shrek

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:16 PM

Shrek says some seem to be in use, but others do look overgrown and abandoned. 

I know the ones, still in use, I know there was a piece in the local paper about some tennents being asked to clean up there plot, think its a church run trust that own them from memory.



#91 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:20 PM

It is not really a fair comparison.  My point is that almost everyone will spend a little on cheap luxuries, even if they only have enough to get by.  That is true across all societies and times.

 

 

I don't disagree, but it should never be to the detriment of children. That aside, I have turned down remortgages over 25 to 30 years in the past because clients wanted the money for such as a car, caravan or holiday. Suicidal stupidity taking out a loan over that lengthy period for shorter term gain. 



#92 Saintslass

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:47 PM

It is not really a fair comparison.  My point is that almost everyone will spend a little on cheap luxuries, even if they only have enough to get by.  That is true across all societies and times.

Cigarettes aren't cheap luxuries!  A pack of 20 comes in at between £5.00 and £8.00.  Most 'proper' smokers, ie those who can claim an addiction, will get through at least a pack a day, although obviously there will be some who only indulge in a 10 pack a day (although I think the EU has scheduled packs of 10 to be abolished in the near future).  I don't drink alcohol much but that is probably a cheaper luxury, depending on your tipple.  Either way, having recently been unemployed for a few months (ie early last year) I know how much JSA is and how much cigarettes and some booze is, and I don't see how any parent can justify spending on either, particularly cigarettes given the nature of the habit (ie a pack a day usually).

 

A cheap luxury, or a relatively cheap luxury, maybe a coffee with a friend or buying something in the sales or taking a trip round a museum or watching a film at the local cinema.  I fully understand that an adult would want, and would probably need (for the sake of their sanity), such an occasional indulgence.  I know I did when the walls threatened to close in.  But that really isn't in the same league as addictions or regular boozing.



#93 Saintslass

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:54 PM

it's 2014 and people are having to use food banks to feed themselves and their families. some of them may even be smokers!!!!

 

who's fault is it? Theirs according to many on here, presumably for having the unmitigated temerity to like a fag.

 

Maybe, i don't know, i'm not a smoker but i like a pint, maybe that fag helps 'em get through another miserable day.

 

They make me sick

:drag:

Foodbanks in themselves may be a relatively new thing (which I believe first appeared under the last government) but poorer people having assistance is certainly not.  The Salvation Army, for example, have been supporting the struggling with 'soup kitchens' and free meals for well over a century and there have always been religious and non-religious groups and individuals providing food, clothing and shelter to those who find themselves on their uppers.  If you think foodbanks are a sign that the country has gone to the dogs or something then you are naive.  They are simply a modern equivalent of other provisions of the past.  There will always be people who need support.  However, that doesn't preclude the need to challenge those who are willfully making things worse for their dependents by their own irresponsibility.  There will always be that group of people too.  I don't read any posts on this thread stating that support should be withheld from the irresponsible.  THAT would be judgmental.  But there is nothing wrong in holding adults accountable for their actions when that is appropriate.  And when it comes to vulnerable children, or indeed vulnerable adults, that is appropriate IMO.



#94 Phil

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:15 PM

Mmmm charity eh? The Sally Army who, according to George Orwell "can't do anything without making it stink of religion" and other handouts. Judgmental? You're being precisely that without even realising it.

 

Nice to see responsible people like you feeling so smug and self satisfied, well done you!!!


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#95 Bob8

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:23 PM

Cigarettes aren't cheap luxuries!  A pack of 20 comes in at between £5.00 and £8.00.  Most 'proper' smokers, ie those who can claim an addiction, will get through at least a pack a day, although obviously there will be some who only indulge in a 10 pack a day (although I think the EU has scheduled packs of 10 to be abolished in the near future).  I don't drink alcohol much but that is probably a cheaper luxury, depending on your tipple.  Either way, having recently been unemployed for a few months (ie early last year) I know how much JSA is and how much cigarettes and some booze is, and I don't see how any parent can justify spending on either, particularly cigarettes given the nature of the habit (ie a pack a day usually).

 

A cheap luxury, or a relatively cheap luxury, maybe a coffee with a friend or buying something in the sales or taking a trip round a museum or watching a film at the local cinema.  I fully understand that an adult would want, and would probably need (for the sake of their sanity), such an occasional indulgence.  I know I did when the walls threatened to close in.  But that really isn't in the same league as addictions or regular boozing.

I do not smoke nor buy coffee from coffee shops, so please skip the indignation (I have differnet vices).  I am not even justifying the money spent on cigarettes, I am just saying it will happen, short of bringing in a specific licence to smoke and only under supervision.

 

You are free to condemn people all you like.  That is not being debated, it is just not this particular thread.  

 

Perhaps we can start a new thread; 'People we condemn'.  


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#96 Johnoco

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:24 PM

What's worse, the Sally army giving a homeless tramp warm food and a bed albeit with a religious slant or George Orwell doing absolutely FA except write terrible books and pretending to be working class for a bit in order to research a pompous book? I back the Sally Army here personally.

#97 Saint Billinge

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:40 PM

My Mum, God bless her, was in the Sally Army and a wonderful person in every sense, no matter the religion. A real giver of her time to others, no matter that she had suffered badly from a violent husband and our family very poor. My wife's Dad was also in the Sally Army and such a lovely gentle person. 



#98 Trojan

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:42 PM

, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor.

 

Complete, utter and arrant nonsense. Of course, you WANT that to be true. In fact you NEED it to be true so that it gives substance to your  obsolete class-struggle view of life. 

If they didn't give me that impression I wouldn't think it.  


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#99 Phil

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:45 PM

What's worse, the Sally army giving a homeless tramp warm food and a bed albeit with a religious slant or George Orwell doing absolutely FA except write terrible books and pretending to be working class for a bit in order to research a pompous book? I back the Sally Army here personally.

 

 

Does the tramp smoke?


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#100 Johnoco

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:26 PM

Does the tramp smoke?

So what if he does, he has no dependents.




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