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Gove's take on WW1


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#41 Griff9of13

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 01:40 PM

"L'État, c'est moi!"

 

But us socialists are more likely to believe "l'état, il est tout de nous". Isn't that more patriotic than the self interest of a few individuals?


Edited by Griff9of13, 04 January 2014 - 01:46 PM.

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#42 JohnM

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:08 PM

Why is challenging the establishment and being a bit of a lefty always portrayed by the likes of Gove and is chums as being somehow unpatriotic?

 

I have no idea. Do you?



#43 Wolford6

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:13 PM

I thgink it's about time BBC4 re-runs the original series of House of Cards.


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#44 JohnM

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:14 PM

But us socialists are more likely to believe "l'état, il est tout de nous". Isn't that more patriotic than the self interest of a few individuals?

 

 It sure is. What could be better than subjugating the wishes, desires ambition, actions and freedom of the individual with some sort of socialist collective. It's OK for the two Eds to do as McCluskey says, but to be honest, its not what too many of us want.



#45 Trojan

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:54 PM

I don't know whether Germany was a tyrant state, but it was certainly an aggressive state with large ambitions that had to be opposed.

 

The FWW destroyed not just lives, but the economies of many countries, so inevitably there was deprivation. But if Germany had won the war I wouldn't like to think what the consequences for my and your forebears would have been. But I doubt whether they would have been good in any sense of that word.

 

You are right about the foolishness of the reparations burden, though.

 

The real buffoons were the politicians who managed the peace so badly, giving rise to the SWW, rather than the generals who managed the war.

And we weren't aggressive?  We who had the "Empire on which the sun never set?"  We didn't get that by saying "would you mind if we came and took over your country?"


Edited by Trojan, 04 January 2014 - 04:54 PM.

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#46 Saintslass

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:30 PM

And we weren't aggressive?  We who had the "Empire on which the sun never set?"  We didn't get that by saying "would you mind if we came and took over your country?"

Going back to my A Level Economic & Social History classes, which I confess is going back quite a while now, didn't the UK become involved in the First World War thanks to its treaty agreements?



#47 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:48 PM

And we weren't aggressive?  We who had the "Empire on which the sun never set?"  We didn't get that by saying "would you mind if we came and took over your country?"

I'm sure there were many times throughout history when we were the aggressors, but in this case the aggressor was Germany.



#48 Pen-Y-Bont Crusader

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

Going back to my A Level Economic & Social History classes, which I confess is going back quite a while now, didn't the UK become involved in the First World War thanks to its treaty agreements?


See post 19 on page 1.

#49 Saintslass

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:55 PM

See post 19 on page 1.

Ah yes.  Sorry!  Page 1 seems like a long time ago ...



#50 Trojan

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:12 PM

I'm sure there were many times throughout history when we were the aggressors, but in this case the aggressor was Germany.{

Probably so, but having just seen how we'd behaved in South Africa who could blame them. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  The vital difference of course is that they began by invading their neighbours, whereas we were careful to keep our brutality for "lesser breeds."  The one truth in Black Adder is that when he joined the army, he joined an army that fought against people with very little ability to fight back.  Indeed we were still at it after WWI had finished

http://en.wikipedia....a_Bagh_massacre


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#51 Padge

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:24 PM

Unfortunately if Scotland go for Independence then this lot will be free for years to try and drag this country back to its even more class based past.

 

If Scotland vote for out then it could well mean I'm out, I'm not for living in a country were the poorest are considered dispensable.  


Edited by Padge, 04 January 2014 - 08:24 PM.


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#52 Trojan

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:30 PM

Unfortunately if Scotland go for Independence then this lot will be free for years to try and drag this country back to its even more class based past.

 

If Scotland vote for out then it could well mean I'm out, I'm not for living in a country were the poorest are considered dispensable.  

I've often wondered, assuming Scotland do vote for independence, what's to stop other parts of England voting to join them? Apparently Newcastle is already forging stronger links with Edinburgh and Glasgow.  What's to stop Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool following suit?  The problem in England is that too much power is concentrated in London, to the detriment of those of us who live north of the Trent.


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#53 Padge

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:34 PM

I've often wondered, assuming Scotland do vote for independence, what's to stop other parts of England voting to join them? Apparently Newcastle is already forging stronger links with Edinburgh and Glasgow.  What's to stop Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool following suit?  The problem in England is that too much power is concentrated in London, to the detriment of those of us who live north of the Trent.

 

I read the Guardian today as well. :-)



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#54 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:58 PM

I'm sure there were many times throughout history when we were the aggressors, but in this case the aggressor was Germany.

There was a massive arms race between both countries before the war with them both expanding their navies hugely

It was the royal navy who introduced the forethought to the world

Admiral Fisher introduced a series of fast lightly armoured shallow draught battle cruisers glorioud, courageous, and furious which were meant to insert at great speed heavy fire power into the Baltic in support of amphibious landings 


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#55 Wolford6

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:17 PM

Looks like Gove is stalling till his big-money party official can dissociate himself from the financial mismanagement of the Kings Free School in Bradford.

 

http://www.yorkshire...epens-1-6351947

 

 

 

When he is eventually obliged to investigate the admin of the school, he might first seek an answer  to why the headmaster (who is also the founder) uses two names .... Sajid Raza and Sajid Hussain.


Edited by Wolford6, 04 January 2014 - 09:28 PM.

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#56 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:33 PM

Looks like Gove is stalling till his big-money party official can dissociate himself from the financial mismanagement of the Kings Free School in Bradford.

 

http://www.yorkshire...epens-1-6351947

 

 

 

When he is eventually obliged to investigate the admin of the school, he might first seek an answer  to why the headmaster (who is also the founder) uses two names .... Sajid Raza and Sajid Hussain.

Is one of them his stage name for when he does the club's ?

Fills the stage with flags from what I've heard.

 

But you are right free schools are extremely questionable on just about any level you can think of


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#57 Saintslass

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:47 PM


But you are right free schools are extremely questionable on just about any level you can think of

Why?



#58 Northern Sol

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:45 PM

Social Darwinism was prevalent at the time, as can be seen by a popular quote that one Britishman was the equal of two Germans, five French and ten blacks... Really sounds like the Social Darwinism was right from the heart of Berlin, although yes there were courses in such in that era at universities in Germany. Again Gove is pushing his own agenda here.

That would be jingoism and / or racism depending on how seriously the view was held but not social darwinism. Social Darwinism implies that the "unfit" should be left to die as they would only drag society down with them. You could seriously believe that blacks were lesser beings but think that the white man was obligated to solve their problems for them. It was also a very common view at the time. 



#59 Northern Sol

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:48 PM

Protecting their empires.

You'll note that the winners of the first world war had to be forced by armed uprising after armed uprising to give up theirs.

If you are talking about France then yes they did but I'm struggling to name any of the wars that forced the British to abandon their Empire. There was Ireland and the USA and that's about it really. We had problems in India but "armed uprising" is a pretty poor summary of Gandhi's independence campaign. 



#60 Wolford6

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:11 AM

If you are talking about France then yes they did but I'm struggling to name any of the wars that forced the British to abandon their Empire. There was Ireland and the USA and that's about it really. We had problems in India but "armed uprising" is a pretty poor summary of Gandhi's independence campaign. 

 

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