Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 401 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, full colour, in-depth coverage from the grassroots through to the international game.
Click here for the digital edition or just download the Rugby League World app from Apple Newsstand or Google Play now.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 401
/ View a Gallery of all our previous 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 401
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Schools question


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#21 Saintslass

Saintslass
  • Coach
  • 4,302 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:52 PM

Primary school children are at school just  6 hours a day out of 24 but it is an important  6 hours. I wondered to what extent GD3 and in her turn GD4 will be conditioned, however unintentionally, by the predominance of female teachers (and heads) during their most formative years. Lots has been done  (but more to be done yet) to restore the imbalance between males and females  in the workplace  in general, but I wonder if primary education needs special attention.

In what sense 'conditioned'?



#22 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,959 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:55 PM

In what sense 'conditioned'?

 

Into believing that schools, learning, academic attainment and its associations are primarily female?

 

After all, if the only man you see throughout your time at school is there to clean the toilets ...


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#23 Saintslass

Saintslass
  • Coach
  • 4,302 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:57 PM

Into believing that schools, learning, academic attainment and its associations are primarily female?

 

I've no idea whether that is what JohnM meant.

 

 

After all, if the only man you see throughout your time at school is there to clean the toilets ...

All the cleaners in the schools I have taught in have been female.



#24 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,959 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 03:02 PM

I've no idea whether that is what JohnM meant.

 

All the cleaners in the schools I have taught in have been female.

 

Oh dear.

 

No men there at all?


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#25 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

Primary school children are at school just 6 hours a day out of 24 but it is an important 6 hours. I wondered to what extent GD3 and in her turn GD4 will be conditioned, however unintentionally, by the predominance of female teachers (and heads) during their most formative years. Lots has been done (but more to be done yet) to restore the imbalance between males and females in the workplace in general, but I wonder if primary education needs special attention.


It was receiving "special attention" from the Childcare Workforce Development Council but then that was abolished by this Government.

LUNEW.jpg


#26 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,701 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 09:26 PM

As a male primary school teacher let me comment!

Primary teaching is dominated by women but it always has been. I once read a study and at the turn of the last century something like 19% (roughly 1 in 5) of primary teachers were male. It was roughly the same 100 years later.

When I started my PGCE course (2008), there was clearly a push to include more males. Men often tended to be less qualified and more likely to be giving it a go compared to the women who often had to jump through hoops proving themselves just to get on the course. It was probably still only 25% or so of the course though. Since I've qualified, I've had 3 interviews and been offered a job twice, the one time I wasn't there had been a mix up and I wasn't eligible. When they often shortlist 5-8, I'd be naive to think that being a male wasn't a big factor in my appointment.

As for the reasons why there are fewer males than females, I think it is to do mostly with societies perceptions of primary teaching as being a female dominated profession, largely because it involves working with young children. Even though there is something like 19% of teachers being male, only 1% of KS1 teachers are male. I have to be careful how I say this but even the males that take on the job are often of a certain type, for instance they are rarely physically imposing and often (not always) quite mild-mannered, almost quite feminine you could say. Although it is a very different culture, I had an interview for a teaching job in Abu Dhabi that was cancelled because they'd decided that only women should teach young children as they are seen as more caring.

Personally I knew that teaching was something that would suit me but I never considered primary, I thought it would be Secondary History or nothing. However, I wasn't comfortable with the idea mainly because of how difficult the children can be. For some reason I thought that the subject content was most important and because the subject content of primary wasn't challenging that it was too easy for me, you quickly learn that the job isn't about the level of the subject content. It was my sister, who had previously dropped out of a primary teaching degree, that suggested it to me. I went into a primary school for a day still unsure about primary/secondary and decided then that I would go for it, it was such a positive and constantly changing environment in comparison to my miserable, groundhog day job at the time.

Certain children, often boys, definitely respond better to male teachers and I think a mix is important. Half the battle with teaching is getting them to want to work and it is inevitable that many boys will want to impress a male teacher that they respect. Also I rarely have problems with behaviour compared to other female teachers I know and that goes for parents as well as kids! In fact at the beginning of the year, some children will often be a little scared of me and it takes a couple of weeks for them to get used to it and that can only be good for them.

One last thing, I wouldn't read too much into the accusations of children putting men off, not at the primary level where children are less savvy. Schools and universities are pretty good at ensuring that you are well equipped to not put yourself in a situation where you would be left alone with children. My school for instance has no doors on any of the classrooms.

#27 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,701 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 09:27 PM

Oh dear.
 
No men there at all?


Never met a male cleaner at school.

#28 Saint Billinge

Saint Billinge
  • Coach
  • 2,652 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 09:37 PM

Back in the late fifties, there were no male teachers out of approximately 12 at primary school. Senior school only had one female teacher out of approximately 15 and then for only one year.


Edited by Saint Billinge, 11 January 2014 - 09:39 PM.


#29 Saintslass

Saintslass
  • Coach
  • 4,302 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 09:47 PM

As a male primary school teacher let me comment!

Primary teaching is dominated by women but it always has been. I once read a study and at the turn of the last century something like 19% (roughly 1 in 5) of primary teachers were male. It was roughly the same 100 years later.

When I started my PGCE course (2008), there was clearly a push to include more males. Men often tended to be less qualified and more likely to be giving it a go compared to the women who often had to jump through hoops proving themselves just to get on the course. It was probably still only 25% or so of the course though. Since I've qualified, I've had 3 interviews and been offered a job twice, the one time I wasn't there had been a mix up and I wasn't eligible. When they often shortlist 5-8, I'd be naive to think that being a male wasn't a big factor in my appointment.

As for the reasons why there are fewer males than females, I think it is to do mostly with societies perceptions of primary teaching as being a female dominated profession, largely because it involves working with young children. Even though there is something like 19% of teachers being male, only 1% of KS1 teachers are male. I have to be careful how I say this but even the males that take on the job are often of a certain type, for instance they are rarely physically imposing and often (not always) quite mild-mannered, almost quite feminine you could say. Although it is a very different culture, I had an interview for a teaching job in Abu Dhabi that was cancelled because they'd decided that only women should teach young children as they are seen as more caring.

Certain children, often boys, definitely respond better to male teachers and I think a mix is important. Half the battle with teaching is getting them to want to work and it is inevitable that many boys will want to impress a male teacher that they respect. Also I rarely have problems with behaviour compared to other female teachers I know and that goes for parents as well as kids! In fact at the beginning of the year, some children will often be a little scared of me and it takes a couple of weeks for them to get used to it and that can only be good for them.

One last thing, I wouldn't read too much into the accusations of children putting men off, not at the primary level where children are less savvy. Schools and universities are pretty good at ensuring that you are well equipped to not put yourself in a situation where you would be left alone with children. My school for instance has no doors on any of the classrooms.

I'm glad you've joined the thread!  Great to hear from a male primary teacher.  I'm also glad you too remember the push for male primary school teachers.  You were a year or so ahead of me in training. 

 

You mention women jumping through hoops ... during my first and second teaching practices I was paired with a male student.  From day one of each we were treated differently.  The male student was different each time but on both occasions the teaching staff were giving him all the opportunities, encouragement and heaven knows what else while I was pretty much left to fend for myself!  It was very discouraging and I hope that didn't happen elsewhere.  I was relieved to find myself the only student from my college at my final teaching practice because at least I got the attention I needed to progress.

 

Historically women went into teaching because it was one of the few roles open to them in days when opportunities for women were severely restricted.  But also the nurturing aspect of primary school teaching has tended to be perceived as the domain of womanhood which does men a great disservice IMO.  This is what I was referring to when speaking about the in loco parentis role and how it is not the discussions and activities with males per se which are important, but being 'father'; ie the caring element.  Men need to be secure in being gentle as well as authoritative in order to be successful in the classroom.  Women need to find their 'voice' in order to overcome the child's familiarity with the woman in a mothering only role.

 

I don't know how you manage without a door on your classroom!  Perhaps your school is simply quieter than those I have experienced!  I think having no doors is a step too far tbh.  But certainly safeguarding the children AND the teacher's reputation should be a top priority at all times.



#30 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 19,701 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 09:51 PM

Just done a check and from the years I was in primary school (1971-77) Out of those 7 years I only had one male teacher. There were some other male teachers but not many.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#31 Saintslass

Saintslass
  • Coach
  • 4,302 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:09 PM

Just done a check and from the years I was in primary school (1971-77) Out of those 7 years I only had one male teacher. There were some other male teachers but not many.

I had two male teachers in my primary education: in years 5 and 6, which are the age groups into which male primary teachers tend to gravitate either by choice or direction, I don't know which.



#32 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,701 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:04 AM

I'm glad you've joined the thread!  Great to hear from a male primary teacher.  I'm also glad you too remember the push for male primary school teachers.  You were a year or so ahead of me in training. 

 

You mention women jumping through hoops ... during my first and second teaching practices I was paired with a male student.  From day one of each we were treated differently.  The male student was different each time but on both occasions the teaching staff were giving him all the opportunities, encouragement and heaven knows what else while I was pretty much left to fend for myself!  It was very discouraging and I hope that didn't happen elsewhere.  I was relieved to find myself the only student from my college at my final teaching practice because at least I got the attention I needed to progress.

 

Historically women went into teaching because it was one of the few roles open to them in days when opportunities for women were severely restricted.  But also the nurturing aspect of primary school teaching has tended to be perceived as the domain of womanhood which does men a great disservice IMO.  This is what I was referring to when speaking about the in loco parentis role and how it is not the discussions and activities with males per se which are important, but being 'father'; ie the caring element.  Men need to be secure in being gentle as well as authoritative in order to be successful in the classroom.  Women need to find their 'voice' in order to overcome the child's familiarity with the woman in a mothering only role.

 

I don't know how you manage without a door on your classroom!  Perhaps your school is simply quieter than those I have experienced!  I think having no doors is a step too far tbh.  But certainly safeguarding the children AND the teacher's reputation should be a top priority at all times.

 

I was referring more to what males had to do to get on the course. I observed in a school for 2 weeks whereas most of the women had been a TA for a couple of years or been helping out for a much longer period. On teaching practise I don't think I was treated any differently, certainly no less harsh. My second School Based Tutor prided herself on having failed students regularly!

 

We've got a new head and he's bringing the doors back. I haven't minded no doors but it can be disruptive when other classes walk by, I think the logic is that it discourages the sort of teacher that has a 'behind closed doors' approach when it comes to doing meaningful work and stops the sort of roaring you might have got in days gone past.

 

Out of 12 staff in my school, 4 are male including the head and deputy and 3 of those including myself teach in KS2. This is relatively rare but not massively so, I've been the only male before but usually there is at least 1 other. There was a forward-thinking school in Liverpool that had almost all male staff; it was regularly made fun of elsewhere as apparently it was shambolically organised.

 

Things won't massively change until societies perceptions of men and womens roles in society truly change as it seen as largely a woman's job. Even within school I often joke about it but guess who is called first to do the heavy lifting or run the sports teams?

 

One last comment regards to secondary and earnings, for the average teacher the pay scale is the same but there are more opportunities to increase pay in a secondary environment. In a primary school you have responsibility points, deputy headship and headship. In secondary there is head of department, head of year, deputy and headship. The pay for those is greater in a secondary school.



#33 Andrew Vause

Andrew Vause
  • Coach
  • 2,305 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:35 AM

Speaking as a male secondary secondary school teacher, it would fill me with dread teaching primary pupils. I prefer Key Stage 4 and really enjoy the job at that Key Stage. At early Key Stage 3 the kids are still enthusiastic on the whole but are too needy for me. 'sir do we start a new page?' ' Do we use a pen or a pencil?' All that caper drives me insane, I can only imagine what it is like a KS1 and 2. That said I think the teachers do a marvellous job in the early years.

Edited by Andrew Vause, 12 January 2014 - 11:36 AM.


#34 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,830 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

By "conditioning" I meant setting an overall expectation that primary school teachers would always be female and if this would likely have any effect on pupils.  I guess not, if there has always been a preponderance of female, but at GD3's schools there are no male staff members at all.The head is female too.



#35 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,701 posts

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:43 PM

By "conditioning" I meant setting an overall expectation that primary school teachers would always be female and if this would likely have any effect on pupils.  I guess not, if there has always been a preponderance of female, but at GD3's schools there are no male staff members at all.The head is female too.

 

It's self-perpetuating, a preponderance of female teachers leads to the impression that it is a female profession. I'm the sort of person who isn't bothered by perceptions like that but I can imagine that many are. I actually enjoy working with women, I've been in predominantly male only environments where discussion is about pretty much one thing. It gets tiring after a while.

 

I can understand why a school might end up only female only, it is an incredibly competitive job for a female and the female candidates will often be better than the male. I suspect many males are given a job because they add balance to the school, something some schools aren't bothered about. I'm not afraid to admit that in my first position I was given a permanent position over another girl (offered a temporary position) who I think was a better teacher than me. I suppose they could have also been investing in potential.



#36 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,701 posts

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:52 PM

Speaking as a male secondary secondary school teacher, it would fill me with dread teaching primary pupils. I prefer Key Stage 4 and really enjoy the job at that Key Stage. At early Key Stage 3 the kids are still enthusiastic on the whole but are too needy for me. 'sir do we start a new page?' ' Do we use a pen or a pencil?' All that caper drives me insane, I can only imagine what it is like a KS1 and 2. That said I think the teachers do a marvellous job in the early years.

 

Lol, it very much depends on the teacher at KS2. I can't be doing with it either and my classes aren't like that even if it takes a bit of training in the first couple of weeks. It's funny how quickly they revert back to it when another teacher comes in though, they know full well what their doing.

 

KS1 is exactly that, it would drive me absolutely barmy after about an hour. My class know I like my space, no queueing with books, no walking up to me unless absolutely necessary!



#37 Bleep1673

Bleep1673
  • Coach
  • 3,430 posts

Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:30 PM

When I was at Seedly Council, I was taught by 3 males, out of 4 in"juniors" one of whom was a complete Bas####, the one above changed my mind Academically, and encouraged me to think & learn.
I then had it all knocked out of me in Secondary at Buile Hill High (was Salford Grammer until the year we went there)

Edited by Bleep1673, 19 January 2014 - 02:32 PM.

Swinton RLFC est 1866 - Supplying England with players when most of your clubs were in nappies

#38 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 9,729 posts

Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:30 AM

Teachers at Gove's showpiece academy school in Bradford.

 

http://www.thetelegr..._be_brought_in/


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#39 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,830 posts

Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:38 AM

The Labour Government under Tony Blair established academies in 2000. The chief architect of the policy was Andrew Adonis (now Lord Adonis, formerly Secretary of State at the Department for Transport) in his capacity as education advisor to the Prime Minister in the late 1990



#40 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,959 posts

Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:42 AM

The Labour Government under Tony Blair established academies in 2000. The chief architect of the policy was Andrew Adonis (now Lord Adonis, formerly Secretary of State at the Department for Transport) in his capacity as education advisor to the Prime Minister in the late 1990

 

The school mentioned is a Free School set up in 2011.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users