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French Expansion and the New Professional System


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#41 zorquif

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:08 AM

The goal is to make Super League more attractive to sponsors and TV companies.  It is likely that Toulouse are seen as being more capable of this than, for example, Leigh.  

 

Boosting the game in France is secondary to that, I would imagine.  

 

Why is it likely? New market, yes. BUT.

 

[and this is all hypothesis]

 

TV- do we risk losing cash from sky (fewer english teams, people aren't going to want to watch Toulouse get smashed for the next few years) whilst not making as much money back from the supposed French TV deal (there's only two teams in France, so why are we paying a load of cash?). Let's not kid oursleves that for the first few years at least this is going to be conisdered like the CL or the HC

 

Sponsors - ok, so there is a larger geographic footprint. So I suppose a global megacorp might be more interested. But are they going to be interested enough to do all the promotional stuff in two languages? Also, will they really see that much more benefit from having Toulouse AND Cats vs just Cats? On the other hand, are we chasing away smaller british sponsorship? In terms of local sponsors, why would a french company sponsor anyone other than Toulouse or Cats? Does that actually enrich SL as a whole?

 

I know that the TV negatives at least are potentially short term, but do we have the ability to survive that loss of money in the short term?



#42 robinson2

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:31 AM

The fact that this question even has to be asked (and I applaud wellsy for his proposal and fully concur with it) is enough to tell me that this restructuring is the wrong move because it tinkers around with the game and does not address the more fundamental issues of finance and growing the game. Les Catalans are the shining example of stability and A French team having a guaranteed spot with the space to grow in the top division. It was probably too successful to be repeated knowing the logic of some administrators! NOW was the time to bring Toulouse in on the back of the most successful World Cup ever staged. I'd say an historic opportunity has been missed but we may well be back here in 3-5 years time.

P.S. Once again, the RFL are not there to satisfy the handful of rugby league fans in Norn Iron.

#43 Bob8

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:59 AM

Why is it likely? New market, yes. BUT.

 

[and this is all hypothesis]

 

TV- do we risk losing cash from sky (fewer english teams, people aren't going to want to watch Toulouse get smashed for the next few years) whilst not making as much money back from the supposed French TV deal (there's only two teams in France, so why are we paying a load of cash?). Let's not kid oursleves that for the first few years at least this is going to be conisdered like the CL or the HC

 

Sponsors - ok, so there is a larger geographic footprint. So I suppose a global megacorp might be more interested. But are they going to be interested enough to do all the promotional stuff in two languages? Also, will they really see that much more benefit from having Toulouse AND Cats vs just Cats? On the other hand, are we chasing away smaller british sponsorship? In terms of local sponsors, why would a french company sponsor anyone other than Toulouse or Cats? Does that actually enrich SL as a whole?

 

I know that the TV negatives at least are potentially short term, but do we have the ability to survive that loss of money in the short term?

It is not like the CL or the HC.  If it were, then Toulouse would have a weak case, however, they are competing against clubs which also have a weak case to be in.  The argument that the money will just be for Toulouse is the same as the Leigh fans arguing Leigh should be in as it would benefit Leigh, regardless of the effect on anyone else.

 

The major drawback against Toulouse is the risk of a back lash from fans who think their club should have special treatment.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#44 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 11:05 AM

Why is it likely? New market, yes. BUT.

[and this is all hypothesis]

TV- do we risk losing cash from sky (fewer english teams, people aren't going to want to watch Toulouse get smashed for the next few years) whilst not making as much money back from the supposed French TV deal (there's only two teams in France, so why are we paying a load of cash?). Let's not kid oursleves that for the first few years at least this is going to be conisdered like the CL or the HC

Sponsors - ok, so there is a larger geographic footprint. So I suppose a global megacorp might be more interested. But are they going to be interested enough to do all the promotional stuff in two languages? Also, will they really see that much more benefit from having Toulouse AND Cats vs just Cats? On the other hand, are we chasing away smaller british sponsorship? In terms of local sponsors, why would a french company sponsor anyone other than Toulouse or Cats? Does that actually enrich SL as a whole?

I know that the TV negatives at least are potentially short term, but do we have the ability to survive that loss of money in the short term?

Why would Toulouse get smashed for two seasons? What is that based on? What club has ever been smashed for two seasons running in the last decade?

How much is considered "a load of cash"? We're not talking tens of millions. SL clubs currently receive about £1.2m a season. So if a French TV deal can pay about that much for every French club, it's a step in the right direction. £2.5m for 30 weeks of TV footage is a very good deal.

I think you're really clutching at straws talking about dual language advertising, especially from continental sponsors!

We don't want small British sponsors, we want big ones. If they're getting priced out then that's a good thing.

There's no evidence to suggest that bringing in Toulouse would reduce the Sky contract at all. None whatsoever.
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#45 Bob8

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 11:14 AM

Why would Toulouse get smashed for two seasons? What is that based on? What club has ever been smashed for two seasons running in the last decade?

How much is considered "a load of cash"? We're not talking tens of millions. SL clubs currently receive about £1.2m a season. So if a French TV deal can pay about that much for every French club, it's a step in the right direction. £2.5m for 30 weeks of TV footage is a very good deal.

I think you're really clutching at straws talking about dual language advertising, especially from continental sponsors!

We don't want small British sponsors, we want big ones. If they're getting priced out then that's a good thing.

There's no evidence to suggest that bringing in Toulouse would reduce the Sky contract at all. None whatsoever.

The evidence is that Les Cats took a few years to adapt, having had a few years preparation.  However, Toulouse still seem stronger than most candidates to me.  The logic is "my club is owed, prove that yours can pay for us".


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#46 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 11:18 AM

I like the new system proposed better than licensing. I just think that if you're going to have P&R from a European league, the level below needs to be on a pyramid system, not a ladder system.

For European clubs to enter the new system, they have to find millions of pounds for a backer just to get them into the lower British leagues (whereas that doesn't have to happen for British clubs).

Under my system, they can have the same opportunities as British clubs but in a French system, saving millions of pounds and guaranteeing French presence and growth in SL.
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#47 zorquif

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 12:49 PM

Why would Toulouse get smashed for two seasons? What is that based on? What club has ever been smashed for two seasons running in the last decade?

How much is considered "a load of cash"? We're not talking tens of millions. SL clubs currently receive about £1.2m a season. So if a French TV deal can pay about that much for every French club, it's a step in the right direction. £2.5m for 30 weeks of TV footage is a very good deal.

I think you're really clutching at straws talking about dual language advertising, especially from continental sponsors!

We don't want small British sponsors, we want big ones. If they're getting priced out then that's a good thing.

There's no evidence to suggest that bringing in Toulouse would reduce the Sky contract at all. None whatsoever.

 

I was asking questions and hypothesising, as I said. Personally, I want another French team in. But the bigger picture has to be looked at. You have picked at the questions, but not provided answers. And even then, you haven't addressed them all. I think they are reasonable questions that should be thought about in the process of bringing more french teams to the table.

 

What is the likelihood of French TV stumping up 2.5m for the rights? Where is the evidence to suggest that bringing Toulouse in WOUDN'T reduce the Sky contract?

 

Why would a 'continental sponsor' be happier with dual language commitments than a British one? (Note I didn't actually suggest that.)

 

Which continental sponsor is more likely to take up a sponsorship (for the league, not just the individual team) with Toulouse in than just Cats?

 

I completely agree that we want big British sponsors, but I think you misinterpreted my meaning. When I said smaller British sponsors, I meant smaller than 'Global Megacorp'. Why would a solely British enterprise be more attracted to a league with two french teams than a league with one? 



#48 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 03:53 PM

I was asking questions and hypothesising, as I said. Personally, I want another French team in. But the bigger picture has to be looked at. You have picked at the questions, but not provided answers. And even then, you haven't addressed them all. I think they are reasonable questions that should be thought about in the process of bringing more french teams to the table.

Fair enough.

What is the likelihood of French TV stumping up 2.5m for the rights? Where is the evidence to suggest that bringing Toulouse in WOUDN'T reduce the Sky contract?

I can't answer the first question. I can only suggest there is more chance of French interest if there are more French teams competing.

On the second question, the fact that when Catalans entered DIDN'T see a reduction (in fact, there have been two increases since) could be classed as evidence that entering Toulouse wouldn't make a joy of difference as long as there are people willing to watch on TV.

Why would a 'continental sponsor' be happier with dual language commitments than a British one? (Note I didn't actually suggest that.)

Because if you want exposure in two markets with different languages, I'd be pretty confident that they'd be happy to accept they'd need to commit to two languages!

If the main TV audience is in the UK, the sponsors don't always need to worry about translating anyway. You see plenty of English advertising at European sporting events. I just don't see it as significant at all. Not one worth arguing over in fine detail.

Which continental sponsor is more likely to take up a sponsorship (for the league, not just the individual team) with Toulouse in than just Cats?

An impossible question to answer.
The only answer I can give is that it is more likely that a league with a larger spread through Europe has a better chance of securing a sponsor that wants exposure across the continent than one that has a smaller spread. Surely you can see the logic?

I completely agree that we want big British sponsors, but I think you misinterpreted my meaning. When I said smaller British sponsors, I meant smaller than 'Global Megacorp'. Why would a solely British enterprise be more attracted to a league with two french teams than a league with one?

Why wouldn't it?

And if you lost a British sponsor because if this, you could argue we could gain a French one to balance it out.
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#49 redjonn

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 02:08 PM

As I asked earlier.. what is the long term plan because that helps determine the tactical steps to get there or prevent wrong steps taking it in another direction. Although one get always pretend that the direction gone was the one planned. I've seen that happen many times but its normally a poor performing business or department.

 

I'm just wondering if there is one or is it an a-hoc approach.

 

If for example it was deemed that international rugby was the highest priority to strengthen the sport (in my opinion that should be an overriding goal of the RL). Then taking steps to improve the French team is laudable and having a second or third SL french team positive. That is assuming they are developing and playing high numbers of French players. If not many French players then not achieving the goal and hence no point in having more French teams in SL.

 

Alternative it could be that it will have a major impact on strengthening SL. Personally I think minor given more important area's to focus attention and resources.

 

Anyway just wondering and some good suggestions as to why should do it. But it seems more ad-hoc than a strategic goal.



#50 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 05:51 PM

As I asked earlier.. what is the long term plan because that helps determine the tactical steps to get there or prevent wrong steps taking it in another direction. Although one get always pretend that the direction gone was the one planned. I've seen that happen many times but its normally a poor performing business or department.

I'm just wondering if there is one or is it an a-hoc approach.

If for example it was deemed that international rugby was the highest priority to strengthen the sport (in my opinion that should be an overriding goal of the RL). Then taking steps to improve the French team is laudable and having a second or third SL french team positive. That is assuming they are developing and playing high numbers of French players. If not many French players then not achieving the goal and hence no point in having more French teams in SL.

Alternative it could be that it will have a major impact on strengthening SL. Personally I think minor given more important area's to focus attention and resources.

Anyway just wondering and some good suggestions as to why should do it. But it seems more ad-hoc than a strategic goal.

I don't think anyone on here can really answer that. Only the RFL can. We can only suggest what we think the plan should be.

Your two strategies aren't exactly mutually exclusive. You can achieve both by entering more French SL teams. Expanding the player pool of SL talent should (if the right systems are in place) strengthen the league AND strengthen the French this strengthening the international game.

But you won't strengthen the French pool of talent without more French teams, and you won't achieve more French teams in SL by making them come through the British system.
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#51 Bob8

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 06:30 PM

No-one actually thinks that French teams coming through the English system is fair or a good idea.  It is a nonsense argument people use rather than saying they do not want their team's chances harmed.


Edited by Bob8, 24 January 2014 - 06:30 PM.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013





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