Jump to content


Rugby League World - Grand Finals Issue

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD - THE GRAND FINALS ISSUE - OUT 17 OCT OR DOWNLOAD IT NOW!
Try our Fantastic 4-Issue Bundle Offer:
For just £14, a saving of 10% on the regular cover price, you’ll get:

The Grand Finals Issue (out 17 Oct) – Grand Final drama from both hemispheres plus Four Nations preview
The Four Nations Issue (out 21 Nov) – Fantastic coverage of the Four Nations tournament down under
The Golden Boot Issue (out 19 Dec) – A look back at the 2014 season plus the big reveal of the winner of the Golden Boot
The 2015 Season Preview Issue (out 23 Jan) – How will your team perform in 2015? We preview every club.


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

1 in 9 schools don't have English as the first language


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#21 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:02 PM

Not sure how news of so many schools not having the native tongue gets turned into some sort of triumph of early years education. Its ridiculous, not something to be celebrated. I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.

#22 Saintslass

Saintslass
  • Coach
  • 4,575 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:14 PM

Not sure how news of so many schools not having the native tongue gets turned into some sort of triumph of early years education. Its ridiculous, not something to be celebrated. I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.

Teachers have numerous children in their care and are responsible for teaching multiple subjects (even at early years) along with wiping noses, sorting clothing issues and overseeing table manners and personal hygiene.  To then turn multiple children who can't understand each other or the teacher into a person who can communicate with everyone is indeed a triumph.



#23 Phil

Phil
  • Coach
  • 1,953 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:33 PM

Not sure how news of so many schools not having the native tongue gets turned into some sort of triumph of early years education. Its ridiculous, not something to be celebrated. I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.

 

 

Well actually my daughter was one of only 3 kids in her reception class who's first language was english. By the time she was 11 the teachers said it was one of the most academically promising classes they'd ever had. she's 17 now and doing her A levels and looking at universities.

 

she's also passably conversant with colloquial polish and urdu.


Edited by Phil, 05 February 2014 - 09:35 PM.

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#24 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,301 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:31 PM

Teachers have numerous children in their care and are responsible for teaching multiple subjects (even at early years) along with wiping noses, sorting clothing issues and overseeing table manners and personal hygiene.  To then turn multiple children who can't understand each other or the teacher into a person who can communicate with everyone is indeed a triumph.

Again. It's just such a shame that those who arrived with English as their first language will miss out on their first two years of school while everybody else learns English. My kids were learning the three Rs in those years, it's a shame that this isn't true of everybody's kids.


Edited by Northern Sol, 05 February 2014 - 10:32 PM.


#25 Kenilworth Tiger

Kenilworth Tiger
  • Coach
  • 8,999 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:24 PM

I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.


Why do you say that?
Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen

Posted Image

The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens.


#26 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,301 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:53 PM

Why do you say that?

I find that a lot of people* who are generally dismissive of the concerns that many have about the impact of migration tend to live in leafy suburbs and send their kids to all-white schools. Funnily enough I make a living out of teaching migrants.

 

* by no means all



#27 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:45 AM

Why do you say that?

See NS' s answer.

#28 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:48 AM

Teachers have numerous children in their care and are responsible for teaching multiple subjects (even at early years) along with wiping noses, sorting clothing issues and overseeing table manners and personal hygiene. To then turn multiple children who can't understand each other or the teacher into a person who can communicate with everyone is indeed a triumph.

I wasn't implying the teachers don't do a very hard job and do it well. More that they shouldn't be put in the situation in the first place and instead concentrate on simply teaching.

#29 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:54 AM

Well actually my daughter was one of only 3 kids in her reception class who's first language was english. By the time she was 11 the teachers said it was one of the most academically promising classes they'd ever had. she's 17 now and doing her A levels and looking at universities.

she's also passably conversant with colloquial polish and urdu.

While I am obviously pleased for you and your daughter, the fact is she was starting behind the 8 ball to begin with and I think that being one of three pupils speaking English in her class is plain ridiculous.

#30 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:36 AM

To repeat: just because English isn't someone's first language does not mean they will not be capable of speaking English.

 

And Mr May's London example is perfectly valid.  High rates of middle-class drop out, high rates of multilingualism, high rates of deprivation ... and schools achieving excellent results.

 

But, best ignore it because it cocks up the thesis.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#31 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:43 AM

To repeat: just because English isn't someone's first language does not mean they will not be capable of speaking English.

When has anyone said it would? I know that kids can adapt because in the mid to late 70's we had several pupils join both from the Cyprus crisis and the 'boat people' come to my schools. They all did fine. But that is different from whole schools not having English as their native tongue.

#32 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

When has anyone said it would? I know that kids can adapt because in the mid to late 70's we had several pupils join both from the Cyprus crisis and the 'boat people' come to my schools. They all did fine. But that is different from whole schools not having English as their native tongue.

 

But nothing in the article suggests these schools are doing any worse than schools where 100% English first language white children come bounding through the door of a morning.

 

I've only looked at the top one (Sacred Heart, Sandwell) but in the school league table it seems to sit comfortably in the upper half of the table for expected English and Maths and very near the top for value added.

 

So, the issue has to be: is there something wrong with schools where children do not speak English as a first language (repeating: there is nothing at all in the article or in people's experience to say that they cannot speak English at all).

 

Should these children not go to school?  Should their families be forced to speak the Queen's English at home?


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#33 Just Browny

Just Browny
  • Coach
  • 11,795 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

But nothing in the article suggests these schools are doing any worse than schools where 100% English first language white children come bounding through the door of a morning.

 

I've only looked at the top one (Sacred Heart, Sandwell) but in the school league table it seems to sit comfortably in the upper half of the table for expected English and Maths and very near the top for value added.

 

So, the issue has to be: is there something wrong with schools where children do not speak English as a first language (repeating: there is nothing at all in the article or in people's experience to say that they cannot speak English at all).

 

Should these children not go to school?  Should their families be forced to speak the Queen's English at home?

 

They should be either segregated (to stop the white kids being held back) or dispersed throughout loads of schools, depending on whichever anti-immigration thesis I'm trying to defend at any one given point.

 

I'm sure a quick text-search of the UKIP website will deliver a surefire 'solution' to this 'problem', although don't rely on it still being current UKIP policy.


I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#34 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:26 PM

They should be either segregated (to stop the white kids being held back) or dispersed throughout loads of schools, depending on whichever anti-immigration thesis I'm trying to defend at any one given point.

I'm sure a quick text-search of the UKIP website will deliver a surefire 'solution' to this 'problem', although don't rely on it still being current UKIP policy.

So only white kids speak English as their mother tongue now? That's an interesting argument.

Its a bizarre state of affairs when someone voicing concerns about so many schools not having English as the main language, in England, are instantly labelled UKIP members or racists or something.

#35 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:27 PM

So only white kids speak English as their mother tongue now? That's an interesting argument.

Its a bizarre state of affairs when someone voicing concerns about so many schools not having English as the main language, in England, are instantly labelled UKIP members or racists or something.

 

But, unless I'm missing something, the main language of the school is English.  Lessons are being taught in English, exams taken in English etc etc.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#36 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:38 PM

But, unless I'm missing something, the main language of the school is English. Lessons are being taught in English, exams taken in English etc etc.

And if most of the school don't speak English upon starting school then that's fine and anyone concerned is racist?

#37 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

And if most of the school don't speak English upon starting school then that's fine and anyone concerned is racist?

 

But nobody has said they can't speak English just that they don't have English as a first language.  And, as I said, that might be a problem but often it is not.  And it is also not true to assume that everyone who comes from a first-language English background turns up speaking good enough English to get by - there is a problem where that isn't the case.

 

I haven't accused anyone of being a racist.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#38 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:00 PM

But nobody has said they can't speak English just that they don't have English as a first language. And, as I said, that might be a problem but often it is not. And it is also not true to assume that everyone who comes from a first-language English background turns up speaking good enough English to get by - there is a problem where that isn't the case.

I haven't accused anyone of being a racist.

I know you haven't.

English should be the first choice language in schools in England. As should Spanish in Spain etc. Saying 'pupils AB & C did fine' is missing the wider issues.

#39 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:02 PM

English should be the first choice language in schools in England. 

 

But it is.  Children are being taught in English even in schools where the majority of children don't speak English as a first language.

 

(I'm assuming this doesn't apply to free schools and independent schools by the way.)


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#40 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,120 posts

Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:07 PM

But it is. Children are being taught in English even in schools where the majority of children don't speak English as a first language.

(I'm assuming this doesn't apply to free schools and independent schools by the way.)

There are schools, certainly in Bradford, where the entire intake of the school don't speak English.

This won't disadvantage them because????