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1 in 9 schools don't have English as the first language


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46 replies to this topic

#21 Johnoco

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:02 PM

Not sure how news of so many schools not having the native tongue gets turned into some sort of triumph of early years education. Its ridiculous, not something to be celebrated. I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#22 Saintslass

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:14 PM

Not sure how news of so many schools not having the native tongue gets turned into some sort of triumph of early years education. Its ridiculous, not something to be celebrated. I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.

Teachers have numerous children in their care and are responsible for teaching multiple subjects (even at early years) along with wiping noses, sorting clothing issues and overseeing table manners and personal hygiene.  To then turn multiple children who can't understand each other or the teacher into a person who can communicate with everyone is indeed a triumph.



#23 Phil

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:33 PM

Not sure how news of so many schools not having the native tongue gets turned into some sort of triumph of early years education. Its ridiculous, not something to be celebrated. I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.

 

 

Well actually my daughter was one of only 3 kids in her reception class who's first language was english. By the time she was 11 the teachers said it was one of the most academically promising classes they'd ever had. she's 17 now and doing her A levels and looking at universities.

 

she's also passably conversant with colloquial polish and urdu.


Edited by Phil, 05 February 2014 - 09:35 PM.

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#24 Northern Sol

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:31 PM

Teachers have numerous children in their care and are responsible for teaching multiple subjects (even at early years) along with wiping noses, sorting clothing issues and overseeing table manners and personal hygiene.  To then turn multiple children who can't understand each other or the teacher into a person who can communicate with everyone is indeed a triumph.

Again. It's just such a shame that those who arrived with English as their first language will miss out on their first two years of school while everybody else learns English. My kids were learning the three Rs in those years, it's a shame that this isn't true of everybody's kids.


Edited by Northern Sol, 05 February 2014 - 10:32 PM.


#25 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:24 PM

I bet nobody on here sends their kids to one of these schools.


Why do you say that?
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#26 Northern Sol

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:53 PM

Why do you say that?

I find that a lot of people* who are generally dismissive of the concerns that many have about the impact of migration tend to live in leafy suburbs and send their kids to all-white schools. Funnily enough I make a living out of teaching migrants.

 

* by no means all



#27 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:45 AM

Why do you say that?

See NS' s answer.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#28 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:48 AM

Teachers have numerous children in their care and are responsible for teaching multiple subjects (even at early years) along with wiping noses, sorting clothing issues and overseeing table manners and personal hygiene. To then turn multiple children who can't understand each other or the teacher into a person who can communicate with everyone is indeed a triumph.

I wasn't implying the teachers don't do a very hard job and do it well. More that they shouldn't be put in the situation in the first place and instead concentrate on simply teaching.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#29 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:54 AM

Well actually my daughter was one of only 3 kids in her reception class who's first language was english. By the time she was 11 the teachers said it was one of the most academically promising classes they'd ever had. she's 17 now and doing her A levels and looking at universities.

she's also passably conversant with colloquial polish and urdu.

While I am obviously pleased for you and your daughter, the fact is she was starting behind the 8 ball to begin with and I think that being one of three pupils speaking English in her class is plain ridiculous.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#30 gingerjon

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:36 AM

To repeat: just because English isn't someone's first language does not mean they will not be capable of speaking English.

 

And Mr May's London example is perfectly valid.  High rates of middle-class drop out, high rates of multilingualism, high rates of deprivation ... and schools achieving excellent results.

 

But, best ignore it because it cocks up the thesis.


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#31 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:43 AM

To repeat: just because English isn't someone's first language does not mean they will not be capable of speaking English.

When has anyone said it would? I know that kids can adapt because in the mid to late 70's we had several pupils join both from the Cyprus crisis and the 'boat people' come to my schools. They all did fine. But that is different from whole schools not having English as their native tongue.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#32 gingerjon

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

When has anyone said it would? I know that kids can adapt because in the mid to late 70's we had several pupils join both from the Cyprus crisis and the 'boat people' come to my schools. They all did fine. But that is different from whole schools not having English as their native tongue.

 

But nothing in the article suggests these schools are doing any worse than schools where 100% English first language white children come bounding through the door of a morning.

 

I've only looked at the top one (Sacred Heart, Sandwell) but in the school league table it seems to sit comfortably in the upper half of the table for expected English and Maths and very near the top for value added.

 

So, the issue has to be: is there something wrong with schools where children do not speak English as a first language (repeating: there is nothing at all in the article or in people's experience to say that they cannot speak English at all).

 

Should these children not go to school?  Should their families be forced to speak the Queen's English at home?


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#33 Just Browny

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

But nothing in the article suggests these schools are doing any worse than schools where 100% English first language white children come bounding through the door of a morning.

 

I've only looked at the top one (Sacred Heart, Sandwell) but in the school league table it seems to sit comfortably in the upper half of the table for expected English and Maths and very near the top for value added.

 

So, the issue has to be: is there something wrong with schools where children do not speak English as a first language (repeating: there is nothing at all in the article or in people's experience to say that they cannot speak English at all).

 

Should these children not go to school?  Should their families be forced to speak the Queen's English at home?

 

They should be either segregated (to stop the white kids being held back) or dispersed throughout loads of schools, depending on whichever anti-immigration thesis I'm trying to defend at any one given point.

 

I'm sure a quick text-search of the UKIP website will deliver a surefire 'solution' to this 'problem', although don't rely on it still being current UKIP policy.


I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#34 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:26 PM

They should be either segregated (to stop the white kids being held back) or dispersed throughout loads of schools, depending on whichever anti-immigration thesis I'm trying to defend at any one given point.

I'm sure a quick text-search of the UKIP website will deliver a surefire 'solution' to this 'problem', although don't rely on it still being current UKIP policy.

So only white kids speak English as their mother tongue now? That's an interesting argument.

Its a bizarre state of affairs when someone voicing concerns about so many schools not having English as the main language, in England, are instantly labelled UKIP members or racists or something.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#35 gingerjon

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:27 PM

So only white kids speak English as their mother tongue now? That's an interesting argument.

Its a bizarre state of affairs when someone voicing concerns about so many schools not having English as the main language, in England, are instantly labelled UKIP members or racists or something.

 

But, unless I'm missing something, the main language of the school is English.  Lessons are being taught in English, exams taken in English etc etc.


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#36 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:38 PM

But, unless I'm missing something, the main language of the school is English. Lessons are being taught in English, exams taken in English etc etc.

And if most of the school don't speak English upon starting school then that's fine and anyone concerned is racist?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#37 gingerjon

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

And if most of the school don't speak English upon starting school then that's fine and anyone concerned is racist?

 

But nobody has said they can't speak English just that they don't have English as a first language.  And, as I said, that might be a problem but often it is not.  And it is also not true to assume that everyone who comes from a first-language English background turns up speaking good enough English to get by - there is a problem where that isn't the case.

 

I haven't accused anyone of being a racist.


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#38 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:00 PM

But nobody has said they can't speak English just that they don't have English as a first language. And, as I said, that might be a problem but often it is not. And it is also not true to assume that everyone who comes from a first-language English background turns up speaking good enough English to get by - there is a problem where that isn't the case.

I haven't accused anyone of being a racist.

I know you haven't.

English should be the first choice language in schools in England. As should Spanish in Spain etc. Saying 'pupils AB & C did fine' is missing the wider issues.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#39 gingerjon

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:02 PM

English should be the first choice language in schools in England. 

 

But it is.  Children are being taught in English even in schools where the majority of children don't speak English as a first language.

 

(I'm assuming this doesn't apply to free schools and independent schools by the way.)


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#40 Johnoco

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:07 PM

But it is. Children are being taught in English even in schools where the majority of children don't speak English as a first language.

(I'm assuming this doesn't apply to free schools and independent schools by the way.)

There are schools, certainly in Bradford, where the entire intake of the school don't speak English.

This won't disadvantage them because????

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together





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