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#21 gingerjon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:22 AM

Plus a fresh flood of young immigrants looking for work in the UK.

BhPEJECIIAAGFTE.png


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#22 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:32 AM

I saw a news report that said that most of the wealth in Ukraine is created in the east, where heavy steelworks and  engineering plants produce stuff for the Russian market.

 

You can bet your life that these industries are, in world terms, not efficient and, if Ukraine joined the EU, Russia would withdraw its orders. Most Ukraine plants would go to the wall; the same happened to our steel industry and ours was efficient.

 

Result: Yet another member country that the EU would expect the UK, France and Germany to prop up. Plus a fresh flood of young immigrants looking for work in the UK.

That is true, the east and the south of Ukraine are the richer parts of that country and it's also true that their industries are most likely non competitive on the global market. Signing the EU deal would have opened up their markets to competitors from all over the EU and likely end up destroying large parts of their manufacturing industry leaving them worse off than the present.

 

If the EU really wants to help Ukraine economically they should unilaterally open up their markets, allowing Ukrainian products to be freely sold into the EU while allowing Ukraine to keep some trade barriers for EU exports to Ukraine. That would ensure a slow but steady increase in their competitiveness without the shock of suddenly opening up their markets to EU companies. Sadly, this is a power play rather than a genuine concern for Ukraine's well being and such common sense approaches to the situation don't have a chance of happening.



#23 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:38 AM

They need a mandate from the majority in order to be representative. The mandate is given by election. Those mobs didn't get the mandate from the general population. 

 

 

How do you know that?


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#24 ckn

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:53 AM

Was there any need to make this debate personal?  2 posts deleted, one containing the personal stuff, one quoting it.

 

Be civil or you run the minimum risk of your post being deleted and an increasing risk of getting suspended or banned.


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#25 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:55 AM

How do you know that?

I haven't seen the mob win any elections. Also, about 1% of Ukraine's population has participated in these protests. 



#26 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:00 PM

Was there any need to make this debate personal?  2 posts deleted, one containing the personal stuff, one quoting it.

 

Be civil or you run the minimum risk of your post being deleted and an increasing risk of getting suspended or banned.

Sorry about that, but I saw his public profile picture proclaimed his affiliation to a particular group and I assumed stating information another user publicly posts about himself on the board was kosher. Anyway, you are right about me playing the man not the ball, so I shall not do that anymore.



#27 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:08 PM

BhPEJECIIAAGFTE.png

 

 

Taken from the Middle Class Right-Ons' preferred source of bleeding heart socialism:

 

 

http://www.theguardi...kia-immigration

 

'Nobody knows for sure how many Roma people have come to Sheffield since Slovakia joined the EU in 2004. The council's best guess is that 1,500 eastern European Roma children now live in the city as a whole, with around 500 in the small Page Hall area. Miroslav Sandor, a Roma community worker in Page Hall, gives a much higher estimate. He thinks there may be 600-900 large families in the city, mostly concentrated in Page Hall. A good proportion of them come from Sandor's own home village of Bystrany in south-eastern Slovakia, and the nearby hamlets of Žehra and Letanovce. Though the migrants come and go, the flow is predominantly in one direction. Three buses run by Interbus make the 30-hour journey overland from Slovakia to Sheffield each week but just two go back in the other direction.'


Edited by Wolford6, 24 February 2014 - 12:12 PM.

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#28 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:12 PM

 about 1% of Ukraine's population has participated in these protests. 

 

I'll accept your figure of 1% for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Which is, I suspect a much larger % than those who sit in the "democratic" parliament.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#29 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:13 PM

Taken from the Middle Class Right-Ons' preferred source of bleeding heart socialism:

 

 

http://www.theguardi...kia-immigration

 

'Nobody knows for sure how many Roma people have come to Sheffield since Slovakia joined the EU in 2004. The council's best guess is that 1,500 eastern European Roma children now live in the city as a whole, with around 500 in the small Page Hall area. Miroslav Sandor, a Roma community worker in Page Hall, gives a much higher estimate. He thinks there may be 600-900 large families in the city, mostly concentrated in Page Hall. A good proportion of them come from Sandor's own home village of Bystrany in south-eastern Slovakia, and the nearby hamlets of Žehra and Letanovce. Though the migrants come and go, the flow is predominantly in one direction. Three buses run by Interbus make the 30-hour journey overland from Slovakia to Sheffield each week but just two go back in the other direction.'

Surely you are able to differentiate between the Roma and the Romanians, right?



#30 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:16 PM

I'll accept your figure of 1% for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Which is, I suspect a much larger % than those who sit in the "democratic" parliament.

Those who sit in the parliament have a mandate from the general population to do so, expressed by the popular vote. Yanukovich got 12.48 million votes in the presidential elections.



#31 JohnM

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:31 PM

How do you know they're "unrepresentative"? How do you know they're "thugs"?  Can you even begin to conceive that they might be ordinairy people who have seen through the huge con trick that parliamentary "democracy" actually is?

 

How do you know they are? 

 

How do you know they aren't

 

No, because it would be incorrect

 

You appear to believe in the violent overthrow of existing institutions by anyone who fancies a go -  枪杆子里面出政权 -



#32 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:48 PM

How do you know they are? 

 

How do you know they aren't

 

No, because it would be incorrect

 

You appear to believe in the violent overthrow of existing institutions by anyone who fancies a go -  枪杆子里面出政权 -

 

 

Actually no, not by "anyone who fancies a go" but by the working class

 

are you going to answer my questions or dodge them in true "democratic parliamentarian" style?


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#33 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:13 PM

Actually no, not by "anyone who fancies a go" but by the working class

 

are you going to answer my questions or dodge them in true "democratic parliamentarian" style?

The working class is not a united front. Some have certain political views some have completely different political views. 

So, in your opinion, if the UKIP got some working class people to take over the Westminster Palace and replace the Prime Minister and maybe take over the Queen's estates too and kick her out that would be democratic? 



#34 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:15 PM

Surely you are able to differentiate between the Roma and the Romanians, right?

 

 

Of course I do.

 

The article was posted to illustrate:

- nobody knows the actual numbers of immigrants that are present in this country. The only thing we do know is that the government is lying and making out it's fewer than is being alleged.

 - the type of immigrant may not be of benefit to the economy or the community.

 

I have no wish to denigrate the Ukrainians; Bradford has a strong tradition of accepting Ukrainian refugees and the Ukrainian Club is only a mile or so from my home. I've been to a couple of do's there. However, if the positions were reversed, we couldn't guarantee that all our migrants would be top-class job candidates, or even job-candidates at all. The chance of any of our imigrants speaking Ukrainian would be zilch.

 

Bradford also has a large Polish community. For many years there was, and presumably still is,  a community-organised private bus service to and from Poland. Who knows whether the same people are coming back that left or whether visitors are coming to visit or to work?

 

The Right-On Brigade Yesterday:

 

stock-vector-illustration-ostrich-runs-c


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#35 gingerjon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:17 PM

I do like that all this comes from a Taffy abroad.


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#36 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:23 PM

At one time, it was all ours.

:tongue:


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#37 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:25 PM

Incidentally, My Great Grandfather went to work in Russia in the 1800's. he was part of a large crew that went from Blaenavon to set up an ironworks in Russia. He was gone for several years because the Russians wouldn't let them return home.


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#38 JohnM

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:30 PM

Actually no, not by "anyone who fancies a go" but by the working class

 

are you going to answer my questions or dodge them in true "democratic parliamentarian" style?

 

 

 Just to be clear, you believe in the violent overthrow of existing institutions by the working class.

 

1. Which institutions?

2. What do you mean by working class?



#39 gingerjon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:38 PM

At one time, it was all ours.

:tongue:

 

As my lecturer once said, "It's been pretty much constant retreat for the Celts for about 2,000 years ..."


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#40 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:05 PM

As my lecturer once said, "It's been pretty much constant retreat for the Celts for about 2,000 years ..."

 

Did you only have the one?

 

It figures.

;)


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