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#41 gingerjon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:08 PM

Did you only have the one?

 

It figures.

;)

 

Just the one on Celtic history.

 

It's a small topic that ends in 1281 after all.


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#42 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:17 PM

 Just to be clear, you believe in the violent overthrow of existing institutions by the working class.

 

1. Which institutions?

2. What do you mean by working class?

 

 

Correct and well stated, I believe in the otherthrow (peacefully if possible, violently if not) of the state by the working class.

 

By the state I mean  parliament ,  the ministeries and all the paraphanalia (sp?) of capitalist rule.

 

although I'm not a Marxist, for the purposes of this discussion his analysis of what constitutes the proletariat will suffice.


Edited by Phil, 24 February 2014 - 02:18 PM.

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#43 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:22 PM

Just the one on Celtic history.

 

It's a small topic that ends in 1281 after all.

 

I think you'll find that it will still be continuing on 9th March at Twickenham.


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#44 gingerjon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:24 PM

I think you'll find that it will still be continuing on 9th March at Twickenham.

 

English speakers ruled by England playing an English game in England?


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#45 Wolford6

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:45 PM

We prefer to refer to it as beating the snobs at their own game.

 

;)


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#46 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:58 PM

Correct and well stated, I believe in the otherthrow (peacefully if possible, violently if not) of the state by the working class.

 

By the state I mean  parliament ,  the ministeries and all the paraphanalia (sp?) of capitalist rule.

 

although I'm not a Marxist, for the purposes of this discussion his analysis of what constitutes the proletariat will suffice.

But...why?



#47 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:09 PM

But...why?

 

 

Errrr... to build a new fairer world? how utopian of me to imagine that somehow, someday, things could be fairer and better. that everyone could be fed, that everyone has the opportunity to live a full life.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#48 JohnM

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:24 PM

You don't have a monopoly on that.

 

In any case, where your approach has been tried it has failed.   

 

What active steps are you taking to get your way?



#49 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

Errrr... to build a new fairer world? how utopian of me to imagine that somehow, someday, things could be fairer and better. that everyone could be fed, that everyone has the opportunity to live a full life.

What would be the governing system of this new world (post peaceful/violent takeover by the working class)?



#50 JohnM

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:41 PM

Worse than the current system, that;s for sure. 



#51 Griff9of13

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:51 PM

Worse than the current system, that;s for sure. 

 

How do you know, it's never been tried?


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#52 ckn

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:55 PM

The reality is that even if there's masses of people with similar altruistic intentions, eventually you'll get someone come along who is a narcissistic power-hungry tyrant who cons enough of the masses to let him lead them, then you get the abuses, everyone's equal but some are more equal than others, and then you get even worse situations than in the past.  Animal Farm is quite realistic in this.

 

Unfortunately, representative democracy is a poor method of consensus government but it's better than every other alternative that man has come up with so far for managing more than a town full of people.


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#53 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:03 PM

You don't have a monopoly on that.

 

In any case, where your approach has been tried it has failed.   

 

What active steps are you taking to get your way?

 

 

I take it from your first sentence that you also want a peaceful, well fed, fulfilled world? and yet you support a capitalist system which has continually proven its inability to provide, peace, food and housing. which really gives a certain piquancy to your second statement, given that the system you support has continually failed to deliver.

 

Thirdly just rest assured that I patiently work for an end I will probably not see in my lifetime.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#54 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

I take it from your first sentence that you also want a peaceful, well fed, fulfilled world? and yet you support a capitalist system which has continually proven its inability to provide, peace, food and housing. which really gives a certain piquancy to your second statement, given that the system you support has continually failed to deliver.

 

Thirdly just rest assured that I patiently work for an end I will probably not see in my lifetime.

The longer a country has been capitalist the richer it is.

Also, whatever we do have today has been built by capitalism, but hey, let's give all that up in the hope that whatever else we put in place will be better.

 

Also, you have ignored my question, and I would really like you to answer it if you will:What would be the governing system of this new world (post peaceful/violent takeover by the working class)?



#55 John Drake

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine...


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#56 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

 

Also, you have ignored my question, and I would really like you to answer it if you will:What would be the governing system of this new world (post peaceful/violent takeover by the working class)?

 

 

sorry, not ignored deliberately just missed in the hurly burly of debate ;) but what has been postulated by left libertarian theorists is a system of interconnected workers councils, based around the work place and the local community, each one with recallable delegates feeding into larger co-operative groups,


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#57 dude02

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:37 PM

sorry, not ignored deliberately just missed in the hurly burly of debate ;) but what has been postulated by left libertarian theorists is a system of interconnected workers councils, based around the work place and the local community, each one with recallable delegates feeding into larger co-operative groups,

So, basically you elect delegates who go to a larger organization. Isn't that what a Parliament is? It seems to me you just added the twist of it somehow being connected to the workplace.



#58 Phil

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:48 PM

So, basically you elect delegates who go to a larger organization. Isn't that what a Parliament is? It seems to me you just added the twist of it somehow being connected to the workplace.

 

 

No not really, these syndicates would also be responsible for the day to day running of industry, supply, transport etc. Probably the catch-all here is that delegates could be instantly recalled if they ignored the instructions of their syndicate or acted in any way contrary to their instuctions.

 

How many of our current uninspiring bunch od MPs from all parties would be around if we could recall them for not performing/breaking promises or just being the unimaginative lack lustre bunch that they are?


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#59 dhw

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:56 PM

because the people seizing the government building is democracy in its purest form

 

Or "mob rule" or "survival of the fittest" or "a minority inflicting their will on the majority". Depends which way you want to interpret events.



#60 dhw

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:02 PM

How do you know, it's never been tried?

Happened in the middle east, south east Asia and in Europe. The result was typically an undemocratic and supressive government with little regard for human rights and civil liberties.






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