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The Tories and the NHS - yet again


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39 replies to this topic

#21 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:01 PM

Anyone in it for the money wouldn't go near the NHS with a barge pole.

Absolutely.  And that's how it should be. 

 

A general nurse (ie not a specialist) is paid at a basic rate of just over £21,000, which is the same as a new teacher or a social worker.  Seems reasonable to me.  Incremental rises (which private sector workers do not get) take them to £27,000, which again is similar to teaching and social work.  I don't know about the police as I've never worked in that area of the public sector.  But I do know from job adverts that support staff in the police force are generally more poorly paid than those in the NHS, yet I never hear of anyone protesting about pay in the police force!



#22 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:04 PM

I'm unemployed.

When I have been employed it has generally been in the public sector, mostly for local councils. I know about wastage in the public sector, I've seen it, and the NHS is no different (yes, I've worked for them, but in the past). No good coming at me with suggestions that I lack grace or compassion or any of that bull. I've seen too much to be anything other than realistic about the NHS rather than sentimental.

Nurses work hard and I'd pay the good ones (ie the ones who actually care as well as really work hard) more than soft sod footballers, for example (who strangely enough are never used as examples of obscene grasping wealth, only bankers seem to get that levelled at them and yet there are a lot of low paid employees in the banking industry). However, the country can't afford that kind of generosity. That's simply a fact, regardless of who is in power.

And if memory serves, the last Labour government didn't give nurses massive pay rises either. However, they did give already very well paid GPs a humungous 50% pay rise AND they took away the requirement to provide out of hours care and stuff like home visits. Yet the Tories get blasted for actually acting in a responsible fiscal fashion towards what is a massive financial black hole.


Well stop sponging off my tax money and get a job. There are plenty out there if you look, most will pay minimum wage and be zero hours but hey what's wrong with that the companies need to be as 'efficient' as possible.

#23 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:13 PM

Well stop sponging off my tax money and get a job. There are plenty out there if you look, most will pay minimum wage and be zero hours but hey what's wrong with that the companies need to be as 'efficient' as possible.

You need to wait a few months really before you try that tack.  I'm still living off my last month's salary (plus rather large tax rebate, thanks to paying too much of the stuff in the previous year).



#24 Phil

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:16 PM

You need to wait a few months really before you try that tack.  I'm still living off my last month's salary (plus rather large tax rebate, thanks to paying too much of the stuff in the previous year).

 

 

so you intend to be unemployed for a few months?

 

You leech


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#25 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:19 PM

so you intend to be unemployed for a few months?

 

You leech

Yeah.  I think I will on this occasion.  Getting a bit wearisome being employed for a year then unemployed for a couple of weeks.  May as well make the most of my tax investment!



#26 Phil

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:23 PM

Yeah.  I think I will on this occasion.  Getting a bit wearisome being employed for a year then unemployed for a couple of weeks.  May as well make the most of my tax investment!

 

 

get on your bike and look for work


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#27 Trojan

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:32 PM

Anyone ever imagine a time when it might be possible for people to appreciate that pay rises cost money?  In the private sector that is a concept easily grasped but it would appear that some people think there is a bottomless pit of public money to spend on the NHS when there just isn't and nor should there be.  The pit does actually have a bottom and if people are demanding over and above what is in their contract (which apparently amounts to a 3% pay rise, although over what period I don't know) then they have to know that in meeting that demand, there is inevitably going to be loss elsewhere. 

But "money is no object."  "This is a very wealthy country"


"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#28 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:01 PM

But "money is no object."  "This is a very wealthy country"

In terms of immediate rescue from the catastrophic flooding to the south of England it isn't.  And yes, it's a very wealthy country.

 

Your point was ... ?



#29 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:01 PM

get on your bike and look for work

I don't need to.  The work pops into my inbox on a daily basis.  But thanks for your suggestion anyway!



#30 Trojan

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:06 PM

In terms of immediate rescue from the catastrophic flooding to the south of England it isn't.  And yes, it's a very wealthy country.

 

Your point was ... ?

My point was that we can afford to pay nurses a decent wage, one that will prevent them decamping to Australia.


"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#31 ckn

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:16 PM

In terms of immediate rescue from the catastrophic flooding to the south of England it isn't.  And yes, it's a very wealthy country.

 

Your point was ... ?

For the sake of blind love for the private sector, the Tories would very happily privatise the NHS and see us in the same situation as the US where they pay roughly 2-3 times the amount per capita on healthcare as we do here.  They can charge that simply because a private industry can charge what they damn well see fit as critical healthcare is a real life or death decision.  There's a very good reason why in the US the number one reason for personal bankruptcy is healthcare costs.

 

The ideological sacrifice of the public sector just because "profit is good" is the reason why the Tories shouldn't be trusted with running anything other than their back-bench opposition committees.

 

I want a system where any British citizen can turn up with a health problem and get it fixed whether they've paid nothing into the National Insurance system or paid millions.  We already have three classes of healthcare: private, NHS and "sorry we no longer fund that", the middle group of NHS funded stuff is just being treated as a political play-thing with more and more pushed towards the latter category.


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#32 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 07:41 AM

I don't need to. The work pops into my inbox on a daily basis. But thanks for your suggestion anyway!


When you get these offers for work do you have a Dutch auction over your pay rates, so that your employer can generate more wealth. Judging by you posts on this thread, if you don't do that then you could be accused of being a bit hypocritical.

Edited by Bostik Bailey, 14 March 2014 - 07:42 AM.


#33 Saintslass

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:44 AM

When you get these offers for work do you have a Dutch auction over your pay rates, so that your employer can generate more wealth. Judging by you posts on this thread, if you don't do that then you could be accused of being a bit hypocritical.

Really?  Ha.  Good job.



#34 Saintslass

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:48 AM

For the sake of blind love for the private sector, the Tories would very happily privatise the NHS and see us in the same situation as the US where they pay roughly 2-3 times the amount per capita on healthcare as we do here. 

Yeah, yeah.  Of course the Tories want to privatise the NHS.  That's why they did it when in power for 13 years. 



#35 WearyRhino

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:59 AM

Yeah, yeah. Of course the Tories want to privatise the NHS. That's why they did it when in power for 13 years.


18 years! And yes, they started then, what they are finishing now - it's taken a long time to fragment it into bits attractive to their capitalist friends.

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#36 gingerjon

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 09:11 AM

Yeah, yeah.  Of course the Tories want to privatise the NHS.  That's why they did it when in power for 13 years. 

 

The NHS has been privatised.  The process started in the 80s and has continued without let-up since then.

 

Why anyone pretends otherwise is something I find utterly baffling.


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#37 ckn

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 09:14 AM

Yeah, yeah.  Of course the Tories want to privatise the NHS.  That's why they did it when in power for 13 years. 

I take it you've not seen the changes in the NHS then?  For example, I went for a set of tests as part of a MoT done by my GP recently, two of the three tests were done by private companies because the NHS had "outsourced" them.  Then there's the persistent drive to commercialise the different component parts of the NHS, many of them are already fully commercial and private, many others are close enough to it that all it would take would be a simple "this would be better run by the private sector" for it to be incorporated and sold off as a profit-making entity

 

No political party could openly privatise the NHS as they'd get annihilated in the polls but they're doing it by stealth, Labour not so much, the current Coalition definitely.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#38 ckn

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:43 AM

So... why does someone working in the NHS in Scotland get both progression and outrageously massive 1% pay rise while those in England or Wales get one of 1%, progression or nothing?


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#39 Trojan

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:10 PM

Yeah, yeah.  Of course the Tories want to privatise the NHS.  That's why they did it when in power for 13 years. 

They're already doing it.


"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#40 gazza77

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:20 PM

So... why does someone working in the NHS in Scotland get both progression and outrageously massive 1% pay rise while those in England or Wales get one of 1%, progression or nothing?

 

IMO, it's simply the first part of moving towards local pay negotiations rather than national bargaining. This has been coming for a while, a couple of places have already tried to establish this but have been pushed back by union pressure. NHS Foundation Trusts (such as my employer) already have the legal power to agree local pay rates, but it's rarely done at present outside very senior manager positions. As more and more NHS organisations run into financial difficulties however, especially those providing patient facing services such as hospitals, community services and mental health will move to try to restrict pay outside the national agreements as it's one of the biggest, if not the biggest cost and as such has the scope to generate the most savings.

 

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